Breaking: Phillies Fire John Mallee, Hire Charlie Manuel

[VoteForKalas]

Wow, Manuel did not see that coming

Could be a shot across the bow at Kapler or a sacrificial move to appease so Kapler can be maintained if they improve over the remaining games.

My guess is the coaches are picked by Klentak, not Kapler, but I do not see Middleton firing Klentak this off-season.

I think this just a move to make a move and change the narrative. Players may or may not respond, we'll see.

[zambonir]

It remains to be seen about Kapler. I think his public relations capital (and Klentak's capital) is dwindling. If they finish decently and over .500 he is probably fine but if they have a losing record in June, July, August and September, they won't finish over .500.

And Klentak will also have to think about his own job. If he keeps Kapler and they fail next year he might not get to hire the next manager. If he hires a new manager this year he's probably good for two seasons.

To me the wild card is MacPhail and Middleton. This Mallee move seems like something that probably came from them. If Middleton is unhappy with Klentak (and we don't know that he is) that ultimately falls on MacPhail. Pure speculation but this just feels like something where Klentak and Kapler have repeatedly defended Mallee and said changing the hitting coach wouldn't make a difference (which it likely won't) until one day Middleton just decided he was tired of watching this offense, demanded change, and installed an old-timer whom he's known and loved for a lot longer than his GM or president.

As for who hires the coaches I think Kapler makes the final call but Klentak has a ton of input, which is pretty much how it's always done. In this case they were probably perfectly aligned (originally I mean. Maybe not now!)

[bkox]

Phillies GM Matt Klentak said Charlie Manuel’s hitting coach job is a “short-term assignment” and it will “not likely extend beyond 2019.” Manuel will join the Phillies on Wednesday.

— Matt Breen ( @matt_breen ) August 13, 2019

[Austinfan]

The minor league approach is a different matter, with young prospects, you have time for lessons to take hold, and to move out those who are resistant to coaching.

I think Mallee had the right idea but couldn't execute, maybe he was "too smart," that is, unable to persuade players that his approach would help them. His idea of "selective discipline," swing only at pitches in your hit zone with less than two strikes, is the right approach, but players seem to resist.

Charlie has a long history of success as a "horse whisperer," that is, even if he's a dinosaur, he's good at convincing players to hit.

[schillingfan]

Puts Manuel in the dugout, too. That may have advantages beyond just coaching hitters.

I see this move as part Middleton spy and part mentor. Remember Middleton was the part owner who actually loved the Phillies and the 2008 championship. I’m sure he has great faith in Charlie’s baseball acumen. So management wants Charlie to get the players’ opinions on Kapler, team chemistry, hitting practices such as launch angle. He also can be mentor to Kapler on managing personalities and overcoming bad streaks and hitting mentor to Hoskins and Harper on home runs, having been Thome’s hitting coach.

I suspect Middleton/McPhail want to know from a Charlie who should stay and who should go. The hitting coach is the sacrificial lamb.

[andyb]

Charlie is not really a dinosaur when it comes to hitting. One could argue that he was teaching today's hitting game a decade ago. Maybe not with the analytical precision of launch angles, but he was all about being selective to get your pitch and then drive the ball.

What made Manuel successful was not really his philosophy though. It was that he could take players and get them to buy into it, or at least have confidence in their own approach. A good hitting coach figures out an individual plan that is the best for each hitter. It would be bad if an organization had something closer to a "one size fits all" philosophy that they tried to impose on everyone. There is not really evidence that the Phillies have done that, though this change clearly makes me think that they believe Manuel can get through to players while Mallee could not. That could be related to unsuccessfully implementing some analytics. But it also could be related to Mallee just not working out here.

[zambonir]

As is often the case this will probably relieve some pressure if the players (and manager) were in fact feeling tight. And may or may not create a little "bump" (or at least, it will be perceived as such if they do well this week).

[fish]

Did anyone else catch Howard Eskin's question? He reached an all new low asking about rumors "that already started on social media" that Kapler thought Manuel should have been fired in 2013. He's trying to spread a rumor from 2013!!! Kapler's response was that he had no idea what Eskin was talking about, probably just like everyone else in the room.

[Squire]

"This is from Social Media....which is neither social, nor media....but...."

Guy is a complete clown.

[jimbomill]

Eskin is neither entertaining nor compelling. If he's on the radio, I am pretty much assured of changing the station.

[zambonir]

Y'know what, in this case it was probably a fair thing to bring up. Not a rumor. Kapler was on Tv at the time and this is what he tweeted:

But to act like it was actually an incendiary comment, or relevant six years later, is asinine. Because it's Eskin though, the Phillies tolerate him and take his bait.

[zambonir]

I enjoyed both these tweets (from today), btw

https://twitter.com/mleif/status/1161298006903328768

https://twitter.com/meechone/status/1161298644374446081

[HopeSpringsEternal]

Not too long ago, the Mets fired their pitching coach and brought in octogenarian Phil Regan. Just recently the Mets passed the Phillies in the standings. Now that we got a 75-year old hitting coach, it’s time for payback - look out Mets, here we come.

[zambonir]

We may have gone a little young...

[zambonir]

Charlie wasn't even there today, I gather.

Also, this is kind of funny:

“Just go to Twitter and just search ‘hitting guru’ and find all these different people making money these days,” Maddon said. “They’re making it way too complicated, and it’s really sad. I grew up as a hitting coach and I grew up teaching hitting a certain way, and I think it’s still germane to the way you should hit today. If you talk to some previous good hitters — go to Mike Schmidt, (Greg) Luzinski, Larry Bowa, all the dudes that played here in the past, John Kruk, Matt Stairs. Ask these guys. It’s really being morphed into an area that’s non-sustainable. There’s too many holes in the methods that are being profligated right now. It just doesn’t work that way.

John Mallee’s firing will test the Phillies’...

[Austinfan]

Maddon may have a point in that many "analytics" guys don't really understand statistics or game theory (which is what sports embody, strategy and counter-strategy), so they apply a formula/approach without context and ignore how pitchers will adjust or how different hitters will struggle to apply that approach.

It may turn out that launch angle worked only as long as pitchers continued to focus on keeping the ball at the knees, but what is the right approach for hitting a knee high fastball may not work for a diet of chest high FBs and breaking balls low and away. Instead of a mechanistic approach to hitting, you need to teach players how to adjust to different pitchers and their strategy, and customize to each hitter's strengths and weaknesses (bat speed, holes in their swing, etc.).

Or as Charlie has pointed out, a lot of what is the current fad has been taught for decades, just without the fancy charts.

[allentown]

I don't see how the Phillies organization can succeed with this continued level of churn in philosophy and baseball-side people. A lack of continuity must be extremely confusing and frustrating to players, every bit as bad as when we drafted guys with great level swings which stayed in the hitting zone for a long distance and then quickly changed our mind and decided we wanted guys with loft who would hit lots of HRs -- while HRs across the organization seemed to decline. It was the former approach which gave us Hoskins and Cozens battling for the Eastern League HR title a few years back.

I agree that our analytics department seems to lack sophistication and a sense of how their stats actually apply in game situations and player development, as seen last year with our bad OF positioning and ineffective shifts and severe dings defensively with poor defensive players (and some good ones) being asked to play out of position. It is our old square peg/round hole problem. Analytics has to be geared to making the most of the players you actually have in MLB and upper minors, rather than deciding how the game is best played so your players will just have to try to play that way. Yes, it can be used to identify players who fit our new preferred style in trade and FA acquisitions, while identifying those players to trade while they don't fit and identifying college players who are both good and fit our new mold. However, having a new mold (or any successful mold at all) only works if you have stability and cut down on the philosophical and personnel churn and have the scouts working on the same page as the rest of the organization.

I see fairly wild swings in the amateur prospects we have chosen to give big $ bonuses to in the draft and internationally over the past decade and even half decade. The best organizations find what works and stick with it, with tweaks to adjust to changes in the game (rules, the ball itself, the strategies of other teams).

It is also concerning that the Phillies are consistently a follower organization, aping the ideas of other orgs, once they become faddy or their initial adopter shows signs of success. The organizations with the best baseball minds are leaders in successful new approaches. I think they also have more stability at the heart of their organization. They also are willing to use all of their resources to the fullest, including $. It's nice if knowledgeable advisors can argue and explain the merits and shortcomings of alternate strategies, but the core decision majors need to have a consistent philosophy You can't have a big-market mentality in the owner and a small-market philosophy in the decision makers below him.

I know that many see the Mallee firing as cathartic, but it also is a sign of organizational confusion.

[zambonir]

As seemed likely/obvious, it was Middleton, who had also spent a lot of time with Charlie (the extra-innings game during the 2009 celebration, Cooperstown) lately.

The conversations and power dynamics that led the Phillies...

But it was Middleton who became a decisive voice in installing Manuel as the hitting coach. The owner, according to multiple sources, has solicited opinions in recent weeks from inside and outside the organization to gain a clearer picture of his franchise’s warts. It is not unusual for an invested owner to seek answers on his own. Middleton is passionate and involved. The lack of on-field results could prompt greater changes than the hitting coach.

I'm not sure this has to be a drastic change though. The launch angle stuff is just an analytic expression of some very old hitting philosophies. And Charlie is certainly not the guy who is going to get this team to play small ball. It's hitting season, not move the runner over season.

The potential lack of stability and/or alignment between owner, president and GM is and will remain a problem, no doubt. But these issues don't have to be permanent, if they get it right. The Red Sox and the Cubs were not actually good organizations until they finally got a good person in charge (the same person, as it happens). The Astros were a joke (and cheap) for their entire history until they got the right owner and GM. We just might not have that (and I mean the owners more than the GM).

I don't think Klentak's philosophy was small-market, it was just a slower timeline, especially as it became clear that the talent wasn't there to ape the Cubs and Astros timeline.

[EDmuch]

I kind of agree with SF that this "interim hitting coach" assignment for Charlie may also be Middleton's way of getting into the dugout to serve as a "spy" as to what is really going on within the team. The Athletic article certainly indicates that Middleton has been poking around, talking to lots of people to get an idea what has gone wrong with the franchise. I think he would trust hearing form Charlie what the players are saying and doing in the dugout and clubhouse.

[California_Dreamin]

allentown...I have mentioned this several times recently. Count me as one who continues to believe the Phils are now at the point where the Dodgers, Astros and Yankees were 3-4 years ago in philosophy. The problem with that is that the 3 teams mentioned are not there anymore, they have advanced in 3-4 years and the Phils continue to lag behind.

Look, I am a Manuel phan and have always believed in his theories but I also wonder how this can work long term when Mallee's theories are what is being taught to the rest of the organization. I still believe that today's hitting theories are way to complicated and whatever is being taught in the Dodger, Astro and Yankees system sure is impressive. I am constantly amazed at the interchangeable parts those three teams keep throwing out there and yet the results are the same.

It can't be luck, its got to be good coaching because several of those players [especially on the Yankees] were merely average hitters elsewhere and are not hitting up a storm.

If there is one overwhelming damming indictment of the way the Phils work with young players is Hoskins. This was a guy who seemed almost the perfect hitter his rookie year...great eye, worked the count, hit to all fields, great power, high average hitter.

Now? A guy who looks confused, defeated and demoralized every time he comes up. I was thinking about this last night...I don't think I have ever felt less enthused or optimistic after a Phillie win than I did last night. It was almost as if they had lost in my mind after I saw the box score.

In my mind the Phillies are reaping what they have sowed. 15 strikeouts against non strikeout pitchers. That is 15 of 24 outs where absolutely nothing good could happen. I know this much. I always felt like it was a day at the beach for me defensively when my pitcher was striking guys out. I didn't have to move, think, react or be put in a position where any mistake I made might lead to a run for the opposition.