2023 Phils Spring Training News and Discussion

[zambonir]

Noah Song is returning to pro baseball, but will he ultimately return to the Red...

They can send Song to the minors for 15 days, a "trial period" after returning to baseball.

Honestly, it's not that big a deal. They'll either think he can do it or they won't. It was not a big cost to pick him and it's not one to lose him. Just disappointing that the apparent master plan to not have to deal with this until 2024 didn't work out.

[Aquapong]

I remember turned on the radio and hearing Franzke for the first time and thinking where the heck is Harry and who is this clown? It didn’t take long to grow to love Franzke though. Maybe as others have said, his voice has painted a picture for some many goods times that you easily get attached.

[andyb]

The 15 days is at least something. They will know by then whether he is good enough to move players aside and keep. Chances are also pretty good there is some sort of injury by then too. I think Soto is not in camp yet and might have some visa issues for instance.

Phillies' Gregory Soto: Might have to pull out of WBC

[fish]

Song would have to look so unbelievable as to give the phillies no choice but to carry him…unless he gets injured and they can hide him. The most realistic thing we can hope for is that he looks pretty good- good enough for some other team to want to trade for him and for the Phils to take a shot on a DSL/ complex league lottery ticket return.

[LoneStarPhan]

Selecting Song in the rule 5 draft was a real long shot. Most rule 5 selections end up being returned to their previous team. The Phillies really lucked out on Victorino when the Dodgers declined to buy him back (at half price). This allowed the Phillies to escape the rule 5 status and option him to AAA. One year later, he made the team and was a productive part of some good Phillies teams.

It doesn't seem likely that the Phillies can carry Song on the active roster this season, so it looks like the chances are high that he will end up somewhere else, likely back to the Red Sox. But DD seems to come up with some unexpected moves, so who knows what will happen.?

[gmwannabe]

former, should have been a #1 pick, without much wear and tear on the arm, I think you keep him for as long as you can. work something out with the Sox. Does anyone know if he has been throwing while on duty?
gm

[fish]

Does anyone know if he has been throwing while on duty?
gm

I had read in an article back in December that he had not been- that he was focused on flight school. I think we can assume he's been able to keep himself in good shape while in the military, so it will be an interesting case study to see what his stuff looks like after a long layoff. .

[andyb]

I do wonder if they can get a longer rehab stint since he did not have the opportunity to do any sort of offseason workout program. They could argue he was risking injury just by trying to assume a normal workload from a cold start.

Rule 5 Draft pick Noah Song is in camp today. He is a longshot to make the team, Dave Dombrowski said. But it will be interesting to see how next five weeks go. Song hasn't pitched since 2019. He just threw off a mound last week.

— Todd Zolecki ( @ToddZolecki ) February 23, 2023

[zambonir]

I feel like they could probably send him to extended spring training in addition to the 15 days. The article said MLB is strict about checking on injuries to Rule 5 guys but I would think there is some wiggle room before it is obvious circumvention.

There is just no reason for the Sox to want to work something out with anyone. They can bide their time until he comes back for free. Only risk is injury or worrying another team might mess him up. But with most Rule 5 guys you worry that they will get messed up either because they aren't ready for the majors or they don't get enough playing time while being hidden on the roster. With Song hiding him on the roster would still be far more work than he was previously getting.

What's amazing about Victorino is that he also cleared waivers before the Dodgers released their claim on him. Ditto Ender Inciarte when the Phillies sent him back to Arizona. But, neither of them were ready. Had they stuck on a major league team they might have flamed out like Tyler Goedell (though Inciarte presumably would have had a good career as a glove guy regardless).

[andyb]

Some Noah Song Thoughts

[julio]

I see it as pretty straightforward. They have the spring to evaluate whether Song still projects as a middle- to top-of-rotation starter. If they conclude he does, they really have to keep him. This would mean carrying him in the back of the bullpen, using him occasionally in that role (unless he forces the issue), and using options to move other relievers to and from AAA so the club isn't short of relief arms.

It's a management problem, but a manageable one. The club currently has 13 relievers on the 40-man roster (not counting Falter, Sanchez, Strahm, who are theoretically competing for the fifth starter's job, along with the non-roster Painter). Everybody but Vasquez and Kimbrel (and Strahm) has an option year (or more).

As Matt noted in his piece, the likely casualty would be Andrew Vasquez, who is out of options. Would I trade Vasquez for a future middle-rotation starter? Um, yeah.

[andyb]

There is the question of whether he could be effective in a Nick Nelson role. Nelson was not just pitching in blowouts. Song would have to be effective in more situations than the last man in the bullpen used to be. We have lots of hard throwing 1-inning relievers and not too many guys that can go 2. Song will have to be able to show some mid-level effectiveness.

I know they can finesse IL stints as long as he gets 90 days on the roster. And somebody will likely be hurt in the current bullpen 95% of the time. I have no idea if he can do it. But if he comes back sitting in the mid 90s with a couple other potential plus pitches then yes, they need to keep him. 2019 Song would be ranked 7th on our prospect list.

[zambonir]

Yeah I don't think it's about losing a player to make room for him, on either roster. It's about whether you can give him major innings this season (or lose those innings and that roster spot entirely limiting him to low-leverage situations). I guess it would be no different than carrying a shorter bullpen and a longer bench (or a six-man rotation), but the Phillies rarely made that choice last year. The option churn still doesn't get you there if you do in fact need the maximum number of relievers (especially with the 10-day recall limit and the cap on options), and Walker, Suarez and Painter or Falter are all not necessarily going to give you starter length. Injuries may give you more roster flexibility but they also make it harder to carry a weaker reliever when some other less-good reliever has also been pressed into service.

[California_Dreamin]

Boy, I am completely with julio on this one and its not even close. This is a guy who had 1st round potential and would be the 26th man on what used to be a 25 man roster. If he shows any potential at all it seems ludicrous to send him away, absolutely ludicrous. Because you would likely be keeping a pitcher with a ceiling not even close to his.

Look, he has been away for 3 years and may not be able to regain his form. But, and its a but, if he shows any semblance of his former talent you just have to find a way to keep him. Just have to. Especially given the fact that if there is an agreed upon organizational strength its the ability to grow pitchers. The fact that the Red Sox were irritated that he was picked tells me they believe he still has the potential to make it. And if he does I want it to be with the Phils.

No more looking back with regret like we are with Curt Mead. This really seems like a no brainer to me. On a team with a dearth of high ceiling prospects the Phils might just have stolen one. They can't afford to let this one get away.

[EDmuch]

I am kind of interested in Kingery since he has apparently had some time to work one on one with Long. Long at times seems to be a magician. So I think it could be interesting if Kingery could be a right handed backup centerfielder who can hit. Kind of a pipe dream. But it would be a great story line if Kingery could come back with Long's help.

[zambonir]

It's true that the 26-man was the 25-man until recently but it's also true the Phillies needed every one of those eight relievers last year (and then some, with the options and injuries and roster changes). It's just that Song might not actually be worse - or used any more - than the last reliever on the Phillies roster at any given point

Honestly what they should do is just give him a position player's spot. How many times did they really use three bench players (let alone the second catcher) in a given week?

In the end though, I don't think they can hide him or put him in a position for a role he cannot handle, and doing so also makes him less of a prospect.

Regarding Curtis Mead, Sanchez was the talented pitching prospect the Rays decided wasn't worth protecting on the 40 but had value greater than simply losing him in Rule 5. Had Mead needed to go on either the Phillies' 40 or the Rays' 40 that year he probably wouldn't be what he is now. Question is could the Phillies find a Curtis Mead on the Orioles or A's and trade Song for him.

I think this will take care of itself. The coaching staff will know what is possible with him after seeing him in spring training. They can't play games, or give away too many major league outs in 2023 no matter how valuable he might be in 2025.

This is also another situation where Rule 5, which is meant to give players more freedom of movement or force teams to pay them a 40-man salary, really does absolutely nothing for the player in the big picture. The best thing for Song's career would be to say "thank for your service, go back to the Red Sox where you can develop properly." Or the Red Sox could say that and renounce his Rule 5. Neither team is going to do that of course.

[andyb]

The one thing Song did have was velocity before he went in the Navy. So it is possible he could be a decent reliever off of that even before he refined his other pitchers. As Dombrowski implied, much depends on whether he comes in throwing 85 or 95. At that latter velocity he might survive a year in the bullpen (with a few IL stints) to give him more time to develop his starter's arsenal.

Who knows? Seems like a kid to root for and if anybody can handle the strange development path it might be him.

[LoneStarPhan]

Thinking about Song got me wondering about the MLB rules for military service. It looks like his reserve duty will be one weekend per month plus a two week period annually. Can he be placed on the military list and replaced on the active roster during these periods of service? They might be able to get another 40 man roster pitcher on the active roster for one weekend per month plus a 14 day period sometime during the season. This could result in Song not taking a roster spot for 30 or so days during the season.

Sure seems like a real long shot to be able to keep Song, but if he looks as good as he projected a few years ago, I would like to see them pull it off.

[zambonir]

That's actually a good point/question? He would presumably go on the reserve list just like someone on paternity or personal leave. I wonder if he has any control over when the reserve duty is (particularly the two weeks).

I think the Phillies will do what they can to keep this asset, but they also always knew it was a roll of the dice, and this is not necessarily how they wanted it them to land. It's embarassing for the Red Sox now though!

[andyb]

If I had to guess that statement in the article about reserve duty once a month will not turn out to be true. That has not happened in recent years to any of the service academy graduates in pro sports. I think it is a requirement that can be deferred or made up in other ways during the offseason (the 14 day period plus some type of PR or recruiting work for the Navy).

I highly doubt they would pull a major league player away for 1 weekend a month. It also would not really create 40-man advantages because you would need to move somebody off the roster after the weekend. So we might get a bunch of Bubby Rossman type COVID promotions that we are not scared of losing when they pass through waivers again.