2020 Phillies Spring Training News, Notes & Discussion

[BostonRoss]

They do seem to favor players from teams that won. Abreu’s teams weren’t great, though.

[nycphils]

They just seem to be giving so much credit to anyone who played on the '80 team (Rose's issues and dead candidacy aside). They're gonna have to do at least 10 guys from the '07-11 era (Pat and Roy already done, Howard/Rollins/Utley automatic, Lidge a must, Lee a certainty and I don't see how you pass up Vic and Werth. Moyer too, but he was withdrawn from nomination for some reason. They'll probably stop short of Myers.

Would guess Chooch eventually as well, and of course Cole when he’s done.

[zambonir]

oh geez, I didn't mean to leave out Chooch and can't believe I forgot Cole! For sure. Before Vic and Werth. But if you take Trillo you have to take Vic and Werth, IMO. Heck you might have to take Pedro Feliz, if he'd played four seasons!

[Florida_Sunshine]

Trillo was NLCS MVP and I believe the best 2B in the NL his 4 years here. That carries weight.

[zambonir]

He was definitely a lot more significant than Pedro Feliz (or Polanco). Three gold gloves, two Silver Sluggers too. But at the same time: 89 OPS+ and 6.8 WAR in four years. If he played for us today we'd probably be non-tendering him

[California_Dreamin]

I'm fine with Trillo but I always felt Dave Cash was a better performer for the Phils than was Trillo. His 3 seasons with the team were wonderful, 3 time All-Star, leader of the group [Schmidt, Bowa, Montanez, Luzinski, Boone] that actually started the eventual 10 year run at greatness, played every day [missed 2 games in 3 years and that was because the team had clinched the playoffs] and was possibly the greatest leader not named Rollins who ever donned a Phillie uniform since I started following the team in 1964.

One of the forever mysteries for me concerning the Phils [and there are about 5] is why Cash and the Phils divorced after 3 tremendous years and I always wondered just what an offensive powerhouse that '77 team would have been with Cash at 2nd instead of Ted Sizemore. One thing I knew about Ruly Carpenter's Phils of that era was that he NEVER lost a player to free agency that he wanted to keep and yet he let Cash walk without almost no effort to keep him. There were reports that Cash was a "clubhouse lawyer" but he sure was a tremendous leadoff hitter and offensive catalyst.

I loved Trillo in the '80 playoffs and WS but if you examine his 4 years as a Phil and compare them to Cash's 3, little Davy looks better in my eyes.

[BostonRoss]

Dave Cash was definitely a better hitter than Trillo, and he wasn't bad defensively as I remember. His acquisition helped spark the first good period of Phillies baseball that I can remember (those Schmidt and Carlton guys were pretty good, too). Cash was quite an improvement over Denny Doyle.

I wondered why the Phillies let him go, too though Sizemore had almost as good a season in 1977 (he fell off a cliff the next year). Sizemore was older and not better.

The move that puzzled me more, though, was bringing in Richie Hebner to play first base when it was time to say goodbye to Dick Allen. It would have made a lot more sense to move Luzinski to first base and bring in an outfielder, improving the defense. Who knows if the Bull would have been a good first baseman, but Hebner really wasn't, and at least Luzinski had played 1B before.

[BostonRoss]

Wow, two silver sluggers for Manny! Must have been lean times for NL second basemen (though Joe Morgan was still around).

[zambonir]

Yeah, the notion that he was the best 2B in the NL during that era doesn't really ring true to me (though I also wouldn't claim to know/remember). I'm sure it wouldn't hold up to retroactive statistical comparisons. He was a three-time all-star, but not until '81. Finally made the starting line-up in '82 which of course was his worst offensive season by far (name recognition always helps!). And then again in '83 (in the AL). Lopes, Garner and Morgan were the other All-Stars up to that point, followed by Steve Sax.

At least we know it wasn't Dallas Green pulling the strings here.

[Florida_Sunshine]

Interesting discussion here and I had forgotten about one of my all time favorite players for the Phils, Dave Cash.

Here is an interesting question, what should it take to make it to the Phillies Wall of Fame?

How does a guy get on there if he was only with the Phils a short period of time?

WS win? MVP?

What does it take?

In some sense, he needs to move the bar for the Phils. He needs to make a big difference or we just cheapen the Wall.

[gmwannabe]

Real good discussions here. I'm going with Bob Oldis for next year. hands down.
gm

[Florida_Sunshine]

What did it for you?

The 1 HR or the .594 OPS?

[Philsmania]

Interesting conversation regarding Cash. Yes, Cash was still good in 1977 (his age 29 season) but he dropped off fairly quickly after that. Poor season in 1978, only 76 games played in 1979 (injuries?) and poor season in 1980 and that proved to be the end of the line for him. Cash and Sizemore had similar seasons in 1977 and 1978 but by 1979, Trillo was clearly better than Cash was, so the Phillies came out ahead. If a three year contract was the price for keeping Cash, letting him walk wasn't an unwise decision in hindsight.

[Philsmania]

Scott Rolen visits Clearwater

Good memory. But not sure there's any real relationship there. Of course the people from that era are also gone.

In any case, they don't seem to be in any hurry to put him on the wall. He's been eligible since 2016. The choices since then were Thome, Pete Rose (cancelled and not replaced), Gillick/Halladay, Abreu and now Trillo. Rolen is easily the longest-serving and most productive player of that group besides Bobby. And the fact that they didn't do a fan ballot this year suggests they knew he'd win (even though the fans never had final say).

I'm glad Bobby (who is firmly back in the fold) went in fast at least.

They just seem to be giving so much credit to anyone who played on the '80 team (Rose's issues and dead candidacy aside). They're gonna have to do at least 10 guys from the '07-11 era (Pat and Roy already done, Howard/Rollins/Utley automatic, Lidge a must, Lee a certainty and I don't see how you pass up Vic and Werth. Moyer too, but he was withdrawn from nomination for some reason. They'll probably stop short of Myers.

Perhaps time is healing wounds. I remember when David Montgomery passed away last year, Rolen had some very nice things to say about him.

[Philsmania]

Yeah, the notion that he was the best 2B in the NL during that era doesn't really ring true to me (though I also wouldn't claim to know/remember). I'm sure it wouldn't hold up to retroactive statistical comparisons. He was a three-time all-star, but not until '81. Finally made the starting line-up in '82 which of course was his worst offensive season by far (name recognition always helps!). And then again in '83 (in the AL). Lopes, Garner and Morgan were the other All-Stars up to that point, followed by Steve Sax.

At least we know it wasn't Dallas Green pulling the strings here.

The '80's proved to be a good decade for second basemen in the NL. In addition to Sax, there was some guy named Sandberg. The Phillies, meanwhile, had Juan Samuel who had a good career here and he, by the way, is already on the WOF and was elected by the phans over Trillo as the second baseman for the All-Veterans Stadium Team in 2003 despite playing for mostly bad teams.

[HopeSpringsEternal]

I remember Dave Cash brought the slogan "Yes we can" to the Phillies!

[phillychuck]

I remember Dave Cash brought the slogan "Yes we can" to the Phillies!

Yes he did!!!

[California_Dreamin]

Boston Ross..would disagree with you about the signing of Richie Hebner, he was actually a perfect component for that team, an easy going left handed hitter who was a clutch hitter and got along really well with Luzinski, Bowa and Schmidt. They talked about how well he fit in and interestingly enough there were more than a few baseball scouts who indicated that they thought the 1979 Phils would be WORSE offensively by sacrificing Hebner when signing Rose. I was not one of them but certainly understood the argument.

As for Cash declining after one solid year in Montreal I always felt he and the Phils had the perfect marriage and it hurt both sides when he left. And as far as acquiring an outfielder and moving the Bull to 1st base, my gosh that '77 team reeked of starting outfielders...Luzinski, Maddux, McBride, Johnstone, Martin and Brown. I still maintain that the '77 team was the greatest team in Phillie history and were brought down by a manager who was ill suited for the skills of that club. Not only did they have a brilliant starting lineup but an incredible 8 man bench...McCarver, Hutton [.300 hitter] Johnson [another .300 hitter, Harmon, Johnstone, Martin, Brown and a catcher who had been a starter in Montreal, Barry Foote.

[gmwannabe]

FS, it was the OPS but also the way he framed the pitches. Much better than Triandos and good old Clay.
gm

[Squire]

Let's just say that I hope that Gregorious regresses to the mean once regular season starts. 0-20 now