2019 Phillies Season Discussion

[LoneStarPhan]

I don't think CD was actually referring to the condition of the road as making it a horrible highway connecting Philadelphia to the Lehigh Valley.

I don't think Arano was one who made the up and down trip that much. Didn't he spend all of last season on the ML roster or DL? This year, he was optioned out of spring training after having a very bad spring and then recalled but put on the IL within a very short time and still is on the IL. That said, I don't like the way most ML managers use so many relievers in a game or even in a single inning. I don't think the Phillies are the only team that has shuffled some relievers between the minors and majors to provide fresh arms. I hope the changes made for next year will help change the way relievers are used. As much as I would hate it, I would not be surprised to see nine man bullpens next season but maybe the forced to face 3 batters rule will help control relievers used in a single inning.

I remain optimistic and go into every game expecting the Phillies to win. I have been disappointed so far this season. The very large number of players out due to injuries has really hurt them. Several of the young starting pitchers have failed to take the step up I had hoped they would take. Arrieta has not pitched as well as I expected and now may be lost for some time due to injury. Not having Neshek, Hunter, Arano, and Robertson for most of the season completely guts what I expected to be a strong bullpen.

[Florida_Sunshine]

I am trying to put myself into the players position and if I had the choice to permanently leave the minors for the majors I would be elated.

Likewise, if I thought I had good stuff and never was given an opportunity, I would not be happy.

But, If I was given a chance and was not successful, and the team sent me back down, I would realize it was for my own good and would continue to work on my game. So few of these guys really make it for more than a cup of tea. To even get there is a dream come true for so many.

Irvin fits in this category to me, and after an initial good showing, he showed he needed more work. No real reason to criticize the Phillies handling of this.

[julio]

I don't think CD was actually referring to the condition of the road as making it a horrible highway connecting Philadelphia to the Lehigh Valley.

You're probably right - but his post gave me a chance to reminisce about when it really was a horrible highway (north of Allentown) - about times when I tried to find alternate routes, because trying to get down the NEX on a Sunday was just impossible. Rtes 42/61 through Centralia to Reading? Rte 93 through Conyngham? Rte 309? All brutal, but anything to avoid the tunnel backup! (Until I figured out I could take some Mondays as vacation days, and go back to the city on Monday afternoon... and maybe stop in Reading for a AA night game.)

[zambonir]

To some extent this is a philosophical discussion about the utility of the 40-man roster in MLB circa 2019.

But in reality, the guys who are on the taxi squad are on the taxi squad for a reason. If they have a big league future, be it in the pen or as a starter, it will still happen for them. It might not be with the Phillies if their development line doesn't sync with the team's goals. Right now the question isn't whether Cole Irvin and Enyel De Los Santos should be starting, relieving or staying in one place, it is whether they can be traded for a better starter (especially given Arrieta's situation). And there's no scenario - especially with 7 relievers on the IL or whatever - where the minor league relievers can just be left alone to develop (or left in MLB to get lit up) exclusively.

Of course both of those things might change in the next three weeks.

I also think when things are going bad people naturally look at what's being done differently as the reason, but it's not necessarily the case. Also, our particularly minor league-centric board loves nearly everyone when they are still in the minors, and then assumes the major league club screwed them up. Gabe Kapler certainly didn't start that.

And this applies to what people think of his game management too. For all the hype about Kapler's unconventional methods or analytics, second-guessing the manager about staying with starters or overusing relievers hasn't changed in my lifetime (or the Internet's lifetime, I was never much for radio). And whatever he is doing that is truly unconventional, the next manager would do it as well, because that's how these front offices work now.

I'm also with Fla, to call these days when AAA pitchers get 10X the salary and credit towards their pension "abuse" is a big stretch. Most of the guys who have come up and down have done so on merit. In 2019, bullpen "swingman" is just another job like pinch-hitter or utility glove (or "closer") and for some people that will be their ceiling. Arano rose above it quickly. Ramos has mostly been sent down because he needed to pitch better, not because they needed to churn the arms, and that's been going on since Mackanin was the manager (him specifically, I mean).

[jimbomill]

I am tired of reading about how the Phils love the stuff of Ramos and DelosSantos.

CD, I rarely disagree with you, but in their time up here, this year especially, our "guys" have got hit around. They've not seized the day. Their potential energy has not turned kinetic. That is an individual player not stepping up. As much as I'd like to lambaste the organization, if a player doesn't perform, ultimately, it is each individual to shine.

[bkox]

While I not the biggest Kapler fan.. I think this is more a symptom of today's game versus how he manages.

Its true, the Phillies have used 25 pitchers this year (plus 2 position players). Its the same number as the team we are chasing. Atlanta has also used 25 plus one position player. The MLB team average is 23 pitchers used in 2019.

12 teams have used 25 or more including the Cubs and BoSox.

[Florida_Sunshine]

For all the talk about the depth of Atlanta pitching, they too are having problems putting together a competent starting group.

[Austinfan]

Some guys seem to be seizing opportunity, Suarez has pitched better after a slow start and might get a shot at replacing Arrieta. Hammer look solid to me after overcoming initial nerves. Ramos and Davis have blown opportunities to stick the big club. Garcia is only 22 and probably isn't ready, but 26K in 22 IPs suggests ML stuff, just needs refinement.

[teabag259]

They talked a lot about Bohm during his long second AB in the Futures Game. They seemed to give him an outside shot at a September callup if Franco continues to struggle but most thought 2020 for him.

[zambonir]

I suspect Arrieta might keep pitching, but do you want him to?

I also think that if you look at this team's home/road record and record against teams over .500, they are still capable of making a serious run once the schedule eases off, assuming they also improve (whether internally or externally). But they are probably not capable of beating the Dodgers w/o a ton of luck, assuming they can even get out of the first game. But, the division ain't over yet.

[David_Criss]

If Saturday was Arrieta pitching with a bone spur, what will his next turn look like? He knew he was hurt, but said he could pitch through it. Now he knows for sure he is injured, how will he pitch differently?

[Squire]

I'm going to wait until an actual doctor diagnoses Arrieta's issues. Arrieta is quick to call out his teammates errors and poor play and very quick to find an excuse for his own.

[Austinfan]

I'd rather throw young pitchers out there, Arrieta has been so ineffectual it makes more sense to shut him down and try to get one good season out of him next year (and decide whether to pick up his option) while auditioning young SPs.

As the bullpen gets healthy, a young pitcher will only have to get through a lineup twice, something Arrieta hasn't been able to do for the past month.

[David_Criss]

I don't think there is any hope he opts out of his contract. No way will any other team pay him $20 mil per, is there????? Perhaps he thinks he can up his stock by pitching well in the second half......

[zambonir]

The team and training staff has been aware of it for quite some time. And he's had the injury and the surgery before. Anyway, what good does it do the Phillies either way? Out for the season on the IL or just a 7.00 ERA pitcher, whether it's due to injury or just age.

[julio]

The team and training staff has been aware of it for quite some time. And he's had the injury and the surgery before. Anyway, what good does it do the Phillies either way? Out for the season on the IL or just a 7.00 ERA pitcher, whether it's due to injury or just age.

It absolutely makes a difference. If he's going to be a 7.00 ERA pitcher, he should be IL'ed - if only to give those innings to a younger pitcher who, even if he puts up a 7.00 ERA, might gain experience that leads to better performance in the future. If the short term is a washout either way, use the innings to make a longer-term investment.

[andyb]

With a bone spur injury it really depends on the severity of the diagnosis. Sometimes it is just inflammation and it can be treated during the season (and Arrieta could pitch through it). Or it is severe and there is too much pain too pitch effectively (possibly causing future injuries like TJ surgery).

He also is not a "7 ERA" pitcher yet. Throw out yesterday and his bad stretch has been more a 5.00 ERA pitcher. Not great, but also not really different than what we are getting from anyone else other than Nola of late.

[California_Dreamin]

Just got a text from an old friend who lives in Philadelphia and is a huge Phillie phan and an occasional poster here on this site. He said Hamels to the Phillies is all over the radio on WIP, and that the Cubs would like to accommodate him A] out of respect for his roots to the city and team and B] because the Cubs have under performed and Epstein wants to move some pieces.

Anyone else hearing this talk?

[zambonir]

I am just replying to Squire's insinuation that Arrieta is just making excuses for himself.

But I would say your response is in total agreement with me, highlighting the fact that it makes no difference. If he's "banged up" and pitching poorly he should go on the IL, if he's got a serious injury that he wants to pitch through but can't actually pitch well, he should go on the IL and if he needs surgery he's going on the IL. And as far as the Phillies trying to make the playoffs and address their rotation, the desperate need for an upgrade already stems in part from the fact that Arrieta has merely been adequate.

But of course, politics, and $20 million, and the not-unreasonable hope that, if the injury is manageable, an Arrieta who can turn it around is still better than anyone in AAA, will all play into it. The time to make a long-term investment still isn't here.

What it really does is put pressure on Klentak to come out of the all-star break with a starting pitcher, instead of waiting until July 30. But that would be costly.

Matt Gelb threw out the possiblity of Damon Jones being the next guy up.

Re: Hamels that just sounds like a bunch of talk radio people who think the Cubs season is over. They are in first place! They have the same record (and the same problems) as the Phillies. Too early to say if the Cubs are selling... or if the Phillies are buying.

Here's the source of the rumor:

Cole Hamels to Phillies if Cubs tailspin continues?

At the end of the day I don't put any stock in the notion that the Cubs would do Hamels a favor. They will get the best deal that they can get, and he will likely approve it if there aren't alternatives. Just like when the Phillies traded him.

[California_Dreamin]

Hamels?