2019 Phillies Season Discussion (part 2)

[Florida_Sunshine]

There is no doubt in my mind that he is a starter from here on out until he proves he doesn’t belong. He has had a good partial first year.

Plus we need home grown to make the budget work in other areas.

[Florida_Sunshine]

I don’t think this is too much of a stretch to say that if he could focus on just one single position, his hitting would even be better. I don’t think an argument can be made otherwise.

Plus, weren’t we just juggling him around until his final position became available? I am thinking one more year of Hernandez before that decision has to be made and even then, Hernandez could still be in the future plans for all we know.

[bigegypt0417]

Unless he's coming back to play the role Kingery plays now?

Kingery at 2nd seems to be the future of this team...I think you may let him walk to use the money elsewhere since I think Kingery is just as good.

[schillingfan]

Kingery is insurance? Insurance for what? Who you bring uo, and depending on the length of the injury, you

He's the starting second baseman next year.

How many times have we seen arguments that, when parsed down to their essential meaning, are something like, "Scott Kingery is too valuable to be in the starting lineup; he needs to be on the bench to provide flexibility."

Kingery isn’t bench insurance, he’s insurance to injury to other starters. He should start at least 150 games and will open the season at CF, 2B, or 3B depending on other decisions. The insurance is flexibility in how you address the injury. Since Kingery can play three Positions, plus shortstop, you have a choice of what position you acquire. This also holds true of underperformance.

Edit - I see Bkeich already addressed my point. But thwt’s Also why I don’t think we need a utility infielder on our bench either, since Kingery can place the three infield positions.

[California_Dreamin]

Florida Sunshine...your comments are not a stretch at all, I agree with you completely. This idea that Kingery is more valuable to the Phils as a multi position player is balderdash in my mind. Simply foolish and short sighted...two attributes that would likely be used in any Webster's Dictionary definition of Philadelphia Phillies. They always seem to have these two qualities in excess.

Here's what I believe. Put Kingery at 2nd base permanently and watch him become an annual All-Star and one of the best in baseball at his position. Continue to use him as they have this year and he will continue to give the team similar results...solid player, everyday regular but just below that exceptional range.

And why would we not expect this? Defense is tough and twice as tough when he are constantly moving positions from one day to the next. And it makes practice more difficult because you can never concentrate on one position. This reminds me so much of a former Phillie...Ryne Sandberg.

The Phils thought his greatest strength was as a guy who could play a bit at 3rd, a bit at 2nd and a bit at SS. But then they traded him to the Cubs and Chicago had him play 3rd singularly for one season and then moved him permanently to 2nd base in 1984. What do you know? He blossomed into what would become a HOF career.

Now I am not saying Kingery is equally talented, probably not. But I do believe he would benefit from going to 2nd base permanently and left alone there.

There are players who benefit most from their versatility...Cookie Rojas and Cesar Tovar come to mind with the Phils. But both were players whose versatility far exceeded their talent and this was why they were so valuable.

But a player with potential All-Star talent is best served by putting him in one spot and leaving him alone. I think Kingery is that good. Hernandez is Hernandez and will never be better/worse than what he is...a second division regular at one spot. Ironically, early in his career Hernandez seemed to have the most value as precisely what Kingery is doing today, playing some infield and some outfield.

I am no Hernandez phan but if the Phils keep him they should have him and Kingery switch roles. You could make a case that Hernandez might even have more trade value if viewed as a guy who plays multiple positions...Dodgers love these kinds of players.

[Phanatical]

I do not understand the desire of some fans to obtain a CF via free agency. We cannot have expensive veterans at every position. We already have a top prospect ready to take the spot. He’s playing well in the Majors right now. To back up Haseley, we have another #1 pick (Moniak) who will be in AAA next year. Also backing up Haseley is Cutch, Quinn, and possibly Kingery. Our need for pitching exceeds the dollars we can afford to spend on it. No way on earth do I use money on CF next year when we have a good, young, cheap option.

The most obvious place to improve our offense is at 3B. If the talent evaluators decide that Bohm needs a full year at AAA, then we should get the best 3B available for a 1-year deal (perhaps 2 years if the player could be traded). Option 2 is to use Kingery there for the whole year and pick up a good utility player to be his replacement on the bench.

I would use almost all of the money available for free-agents on pitching. 2 starters needed badly.

I got to watch Kingery at 2B quite a lot at AA, AAA, and in spring-training. This is a gold-glove level defender folks. If Klentak decides to move Hernandez. Kingery will provide better offense AND defense at second base.

[Austinfan]

KIngery will eventually be the 2B. In a year or two.
First, Bohm has to come up and solidify 3B
Then Stott comes up and becomes the superutility guy before he replaces Segura.
Moniak/Stephen come up and provide the OF depth that keeps Kingery in the IF.
And finally (cross fingers) Simmons comes up and is the super utility guy when Stott becomes the SS.

Ideally you want 2-3 guys who can play multiple positions at a starter level because crap (injuries) happen.

[mdougherty12]

I do not understand the desire of some fans to obtain a CF via free agency. We cannot have expensive veterans at every position.

There isn't much chance that the Phillies will sign an expensive veteran via free agency to play CF this off-season, mostly because there aren't any good CFs likely to be free agents this off-season.

[Squire]

I haven't read this thread religiously but yeah.....we are NOT acquiring any OFs that didn't wear a Phillies uniform this year.

Already under control for next year are Harper, McCutcheon, Haseley, Quinn, Bruce and while people don't like hearing it Herrera and Williams too. Maybe (and I think this is unlikely) we bring Dickerson back too. I don't see us looking for any OF.

[bkeich]

What did I tell you? He's "more valuable" as a sub than as a regular!

"As a day-day 3B he may not have the bat" - Kingery's 2019 OPS stands at .814. That's generally a good enough bat to hold down third base.

"as a day-day 2B he may not be the best fielder" - In 2017, Kingery won a Gold Glove as the best 2B in the International League. We don't have major-league defensive metrics on Kingery, because Kapler's only put him out there in 14 games. But the evidence we do have suggests that Kingery is quite adequate, at least, at second base.

I love the idea of being able to plug an injury hole with a player of Kngery's caliber. Who wouldn't like that? But to take that player out of the starting lineup, in favor of an inferior player, just to have that "flexibility" in case of injury?

Yes, Kingery's .814 this year is good enough for 3B, where the league average is .801, but lets be honest, it has been fading for quite some time now. He started ultra hot and for the most part his OPS has been falling. He may not have the bat for 3B, he needs to prove that for more than a few months. Lets remember last year he was horrendous.

And I havent seen enough of him at 2B to prove that he is a good, average or terrible fielder. There is reason to think he is at least average, but he needs to demonstrate it.

I dont think there is any reason for Kingery to not be in the lineup. As a supersub he should start 150 games when healthy. Just because he isnt our starting XX doesnt mean he isnt a starter.

[allentown]

No. I'm sticking with Hoskins and Kingery, with Segura followed hopefully by Stott quite soon, and with Bohm in a year, or even mid-season at 3B. I'm also sticking with Haseley in the OF. I think our biggest need is pitching this off-season. This is not the off-season for a big position player signing. If Cutch is healthy, the starting OF is set. We could make use of a short-term 3B. SS, 2B, 1B, catcher are set.

If we get a short-term 3B, I'd rather get another guy as utility IF and give 2B to Kingery. He can still serve as a super-sub-in reserve in a serious injury occurs at 3B, SS, or CF.

[BostonRoss]

I’ll repeat that the Phillies should try to get a very good offensive player and not worry about position. Kingery will play nearly every day next season wherever.

[zambonir]

I don't think there's a CF out there to be had but that doesn't mean I'm sold on Haseley for 150 games either. The patchwork is still okay (but works best if Kingery is not your starting 2B, unless you want to count on Roman Quinn).

So yeah I think Kingery probably does still add more value playing multiple positions. Last year when he failed at it the party line was either he just wasn't as good as a Zobrist or a Davis, or the Phillies weren't as good at making him that good. Now he's actually good. Maybe he'd be better playing just one position, but maybe he's actually good enough to continue in this role, and separately from his individual stats maybe he still adds incrementally greater value in this role.

The main thing, though, is he has to play more. Granted it was partly injuries, and less playing time to be had earlier in the year, but he has almost 200 fewer PAs than Hoskins and 150 fewer than Hernandez. If he's going to continue being a multi-tool he's still gotta get the starter-quantity ABs.

I think Cesar could be back but he also might be done if they decide/are able to sign a big 3B bat. Better use of the money. Paying him $10 million to play Kingery's role probably isn't gonna happen, because I'm not sure Cesar is actually good enough defensively to play SS, CF and 3B (and he might not even be as good as Miller).

Nothing is guaranteed, but the risk here is making the same mistake about the line-up that they made with the pitching this year. If Cutch isn't what he was and Haseley struggles and either 3B or 2B is still a weak point you're in trouble, just like having all three young starters bomb was trouble.

Atown's right though, it's more about the pitching. Give me Gerrit Cole, Nola, Robbie Ray (for instance), Arrieta and Eflin and I'm ready to live with no major new additions to the line-up. If it's Nola, Robbie Ray, Arrieta, Eflin and Vargas, no.

Again though, we didn't see Segura or Realmuto coming. There's bound to be a big trade of some kind.

[California_Dreamin]

Of course there are. Starling Marte is imminently gettable IF the Phils wanted to pay the price. I prefer to let Haseley play there but an argument to get Marte can be made. Pittsburgh has made it clear that he is there for the taking and in the irony of ironies, my guess is that either MM or Haseley would be a part of the package.

That said, I wouldn't look to trade for a CFer and would really like to bring Dickerson back, though I cannot find one reason to convince myself he would want to come back...not because he doesn't enjoy Philadelphia but because he wants to get paid and play.

[zambonir]

Well, true, trade market would be a little different.

Dickerson's a weird one. Great career numbers, a Gold Glove (however meaningless), strong season, FA for the first time. But, 31, not as good against lefties. some injury issues. I think it's less about what it would take to sign him than how you make the pieces fit together, even if Bruce is traded. He can't truly platoon with Cutch because Cutch isn't going to just play against LHP and he can't platoon with Haseley because they are both LHBs. But you could probably still find enough ABs for the three of them between the two positions - if you're willing to let Cutch or Dickerson play CF.

[phillychuck]

Kingery could be the next Mariano Duncan or Ben Zobrist--a regular who plays multiple positions but starts ~150 games. Or he could be the next full-time 2B. My preference is for him to play 2B (I think his defense is gold-glove caliber) but I don't think the front office thinks that way. Cesar is passable at SS and CF and could be a bench bat. Orr traded if there is value available. I think I'm all-in on a veteran 3B on a 1-year deal. Let Bohm ripen in AAA. then buy a couple of pitchers and hope the bullpen gets healthy.

[andyb]

Right now Cesar is better than our alternatives in CF or 3B. They probably need to fix both of those issues before considering whether to move Kingery to 2B. Bohm might fix one, but it will probably not be immediate. The question on CF is much more complicated. If they think Haseley can be adequate defensively then that problem could be solved, but that is a pretty big IF at this point.

The dramatic move this team makes seems more likely to be on the starting pitching side than on the offensive side. We keep drafting hitters with our number one pick so it is understandable that we have fewer starting pitchers in our prospect pipeline.

[California_Dreamin]

A few days ago there was some discussion about when was the last time the Phils swept a 5 game series from a team. This was in reference to the Phils upcoming 5 game series against the Nats to close their final road trip of the season.

If memory serves me the last time the Phils ever swept a 5 game series was in August of 1980 and it was the series that actually turned the season around and culminated in their first ever WS victory. It was against the Mets in NY and truly was a dominant series for the team, when perhaps for the first time all year the entire team truly came together as a group.

Not surprisingly it came less than 1 week after the famous Dallas Green tirade in the clubhouse after a disastrous 4 game sweep loss in Pittsburgh when their season looked over. I remember both series well, especially the Mets series because it was so unexpected and dominant.

They won by scores of 8-1, 8-0, 11-6, 9-4 and 4-1 and their then 5 man starting rotation of Espinosa, Christenson, Walk, Carlton and Lerch won every game [Bystrom was a few weeks away at the time]. The thing I also recall was that EVERYONE on that roster contributed. The Vukovich's, George and John both played and helped, Keith Moreland and Lonnie Smith played well, Ramon Aviles got in some action and the then bullpen of Reed, McGraw, Brusstar, Saucier and Noles all pitched well. It was a 40-12 demolition and I recall being shocked when they only scored 4 runs in the double bill finale. It was that impressive. And Greg Luzinski didn't even play, he was still on the injured list till 10 days later.

Does this team have it in them to repeat against a much tougher Nats team? Very unlikely. By the way a couple of other 4 game sweeps that come to mind...same season, 1980, last week of the season the Phils swept the Cubs at the Vet and in 1984 they swept the Cubs at Wrigley, again hitting the ball well.

And many of us recall that amazing 4 game sweep of the Brewers at the end of the 2008 season, the series that truly catapulted that team into contention. Brewers came to tow 4 games up on the Phils, and the Phightins won all 4 games in once again dominant fashion. Brewers had so little respect for that Phillie team that they didn't throw recently acquired CC Sabathia against them even though he was to go 9-1 with the Brew Crew. Probably wouldn't have mattered, that Phillie team was really coming together when that series started.

So, there you go....

[flyers19rw]

The more that Hasely plays CF, the more there is to like. He's showing a 1.3 WAR according to B-Ref. His play in the field has been fine; several 5* plays. The arm is there as well. I don't see him as a drop off to Kingery in the position. OTOH, how good is SK at 3B? The range is there and the glove but does he have the arm to make the throw from a deep 3B? If he does, he can handle the position and keep Cesar at 2B. Right now I'd rather have Hasely in CF; Cesar at 2B and Kingery at 3B than trading Cesar and going for another CF.
The Phillies have more significant issues for their future such as extending JT; straightening out Hoskins or moving on from him; adding two SPs and rebuilding the BP. There's no reason to start playing Fantasy Baseball with half of the position players.

[andyb]

The admittedly SSS fielding stats from this year have both Kingery and Haseley as slightly below average in CF. Haseley is above average in LF and Kingery is now above average at 3B. Kingery does seem to be getting better at other positions. There is probably not much difference between the two in CF now. Could they both improve to average or even better? Sure. Kingery probably has a better shot at it because of his speed. Haseley could be a gold glove in LF also.

With a 750 OPS in CF the team can live with Haseley there. Whether he can do that consistently is a question. I will say that the juiced balls probably help both Haseley and Kingery as they are the type of 50 power guys that can hit 25 HRs with the new balls when it might have been 15 previously.