2018-19 Phillies Off-Season Discussion (2019 version)

[bigegypt0417]

Machado wouldn't survive in Philadelphia or in NY. that's why he signed in a place where no one will even remember him....Bryce Harper has his warts but he makes this line-up better. He forces teams to pitch to those around him and we'll see what his impact was on the nats line-up.

[julio]

I think this entire offseason was bungled from the jump. Say what you want about this front office of baseball people, but they are extremely deliberate in all they do. They never leak. They have unique "valuations" of players (Santana, Arrieta, possibly Keuchel) and they seem to have a plan.

This Harper and Machado stuff has seemingly been a p---- contest with Middleton. A group with such strong ideas cannot value Harper over Machado (taking them at their word). In ten years, when this is all said and done, it will be fascinating to hear what is really happening behind the scenes.

This is an...interesting... post.

The Phillies "bungled" the offseason? The arguments are: 1) they were deliberate; they don't leak; they have a plan. So a well-handled offseason would involve: precipitate decision-making; leaking; absence of a plan. Okay, then.

A group with strong ideas cannot value Harper over Machado? Why not? Because you don't?

Strange.

[LoneStarPhan]

I have heard some NY talk discussion on Machado that concludes that they were not in on him because of concerns about how he would do in New York. Of course, I have no inside information, but I can understand why Machado's persona could cause problems in with the fan base in New York and Philadelphia. Ten years is a long contract and if for any reason, a player falls out of favor, it can be a real albatross for the club.

Of course, the same could happen with any player including Harper, but I think the Phillies were happy with Harper and his attitude and enthusiasm for the game after the LV meeting earlier this off season. So yes, there are many arguments as to why Machado is more valuable but on balance, maybe the Phillies are more comfortable with Harper. Again, we don't know the real story. At this point, I just want to either sign Harper or have him sign elsewhere. Get it over with and let's move on to make any other moves that might be made before the end of spring training.

[Dirk41]

No, that's exactly what's I'm saying. All these meetings, agents playing the media and it seemingly working, very unlike anything this crew has been a part of. All the rest of the deals this offseason fit their style. Sure, Machado and Harper are unlike any other free agent, but you would think the approach would be similar.

It seems as if there are two factions of the front office at play here. The Klentak/McPhail side and the Middleton/Stupid Money side. History shows both can win, but who is actually running the Phillies is fascinating and I'm sure we will know in time.

[tom81]

Unlike Kraft, going to FL, our owner goes where its legal

It’s not really legal in Las Vegas either. You have to go outside of Clark county to find a legal one.

[zambonir]

I haven't seen anyone say Middleton was not really in Vegas. And Boras is too, supposedly.

I also think Passan just chose his words poorly. "Meet and greet" is too casual. But it doesn't have to be a "sign and fly" either. What this is is the beginning of the real final negotiation. It could take 24 hours, it could take two days, it could take another week. But he doesn't have to get on the plane tomorrow.

Reports of other teams still trying as per Heyman, sure, whatever. It's hard to imagine the Phillies walking away w/o meeting their number when they obviously were willing to let Manny go due to a preference for Harper, not "valuation."

The fact that there might be a gap between what Middleton wants and what Klentak wants (I wouldn't put MacPhail in either camp, his job is to tell tickets as much as it is to win games) is not ideal, but I don't think the point of disagreement is large enough to matter. If Middleton wanted to sign either FA and Klentak doesn't want to, that would be a bigger issue if the GM isn't allowed to do his job. But if Klentak merely preferred Manny (for very valid baseball and $ reasons) and Middleton prefers Harper (for also valid baseball and revenue reasons) that's okay. If Klentak had wanted Manny badly enough to stake his job on it I'm sure Middleton would have let him make the signing, and if Klentak absolutely doesn't want Harper we wouldn't still be on him. Or we'll have a new GM.

holding out just so you can be the highest paid player in the game is not going to sit well with the Philly phandom.

"holding out" typically refers to players who are under contract, or want a valid contract ripped up. Philly phans will get over it if and when he signs. They are not going to boo him on Opening Day because he missed a spring training game on March 5.

[jimbomill]

It’s not really legal in Las Vegas either. You gave to go outside of Clark county to find a legal one.

I'm sure he can catch a ride out there, too

[bigegypt0417]

How about mike trout?

No playoff wins...

[LoneStarPhan]

Addressing speculation as to whether or not Boras is there --- for what it's worth.

Jim Bowden (JimBowdenGM)

[Florida_Sunshine]

I give Middleton credit for going solo to Vegas to negotiate with Boras.

It does a few things.

1. As the owner, it is his money and he is final say. He is trying to cut to the chase and get this done.

2. Middleton creates goodwill with the fan base by doing this, win or lose.

3. Middleton wants to be the guy that walks away if deal isn’t made. The major result of this is cover for Klentak.

4. Although I think a deal will get done in Vegas, it may take Middleton making a final take it or leave it offer. If no deal is made in Vegas, I would not be surprised either. At this point, I would give another couple days before all the crying.

[flyers19rw]

I couldn't agree more with you sunshine. If Boras pushes Middleton too far and he walks, the failure will be on the agent. The owner looks to have gone the extra mile by going to LV to get the deal done. He and the Phillies will have lost no face if the talks collapse.
If things do head south, what types of offers will Boras get? Nothing like the one the Phillies have made. Less money with more of it deferred? How does Boras get around that one for his clients? How would he handle calling up Middleton again and asking to talk if things break down now. Its fish or cut bait for Boras/Haper.

[Florida_Sunshine]

If Boras rejects a walk away offer, I would still give it a couple days upon Middleton’s return to Philly as it could still play out that way. If Boras is smart, it will be presented as Harper over riding Boras and saying he wants to come to Philly.

[zambonir]

Seems like eventually Boras always meets with the owner solo. Has he ever reached that point and not done a deal?

What would a "walk away" offer even be at this point? If the Phillies aren't ready to top Manny's deal Harper has just as much a right to say "do you really want me?" as we do to say "does he really want to be here?" But he may not have a better one.

[allentown]

.progress by inches...no perhaps centermeters ...stay tuned...

centermeters? Are you kidding me. No need to even write the word and totally botches centimeters.

[Florida_Sunshine]

Well, we aren’t there, so we don’t know the number. But that is irrelevant. If negotiations are still going slow, that typically means a big gap. If Boras is stuck, as an example on 10/400M, a walk away might be 10/360M. The walk away concept could be on other deal issues. We may never know.

[LoneStarPhan]

.progress by inches...no perhaps centermeters ...stay tuned...

centermeters? Are you kidding me. No need to even write the word and totally botches centimeters.

I'm sure Bowden was just in a hurry to get this breaking news out.

[zambonir]

While I wish it were otherwise, in the age of mobile phones and dictation and auto-correct you can't really assume a typo makes someone an idiot (especially since you can't edit tweets). Just careless or in a rush.

Well, we aren’t there, so we don’t know the number. But that is irrelevant. If negotiations are still going slow, that typically means a big gap. If Boras is stuck, as an example on 10/400M, a walk away might be 10/360M. The walk away concept could be on other deal issues. We may never know.

Sure but the Phillies could also still be at $275, knowing no other team is even getting close to that (given the Nats' deferral, plus that offer probably isn't even on the table anymore). Or they could be offering 8 years with the AAV Boras wants.

Everything we've read the last few days has said the Phillies remain confident. That's not a message they really need to be sending if it might backfire on them. I also think Middleton and Boras really get along.

[Florida_Sunshine]

Good article today in Washington Post on the situation Bryce is in and the Nats payroll.

[HopeSpringsEternal]

centermeters? Are you kidding me.

Well, that's better than millymeters.

[Squire]

I actually don't think we'll get a deal UNTIL Middleton walks away empty handed this weekend. Boras feels like he has all the leverage right now. Until he is convinced that the Phillies might just pack it up nothing will get done. I absolutely expect very public reports tomorrow of Middleton flying home WITHOUT a deal.