2017-18 Offseason Non-Phillies News/Notes/Discussion

[schillingfan]

To me the problem is that MLB is a monopoly in America. You want to play baseball, you must play for the team that drafted you and you can't search competitively for the best offer, you take the bonus from the only team you can sign with and the systemwide pay scale or you don't play. Waiting for the next draft or being so low-valued that nobody drafts you and becoming a free agent are the only other ways to play and they are a gamble.

[zambonir]

That's why this stuff is so appalling. They already have the reserve clause, so this is piling on.

[Austinfan]

Though I wonder how long low paid players actually play in the minors, that is, the guys who get zero or very low bonuses.
A lot of draft picks get college tuition and a sizeable bonus (at 18 or 19, $50-$100K is real money).

And how long do college seniors play if they're not real prospects? If it's 1-2 years, then it's like taking off a year or two before deciding on what you want to do with your life.

Do they get meal money? In "real world" jobs commuting and lunch can eat a sizable portion of your paycheck for low wage earners.

While ML baseball (both owners and players) could certainly raise minor league salaries without much pain, I'm not as inclined to outrage relative to say a 35 year old couple, both working $10/hr jobs, trying to raise a couple kids, facing the loss of health insurance if Obama care is killed, struggling to find affordable housing, and to pay for cars because mass transit is unavailable or unreliable, etc. The fate of a 22 year old college senior, putting off looking for a real job for a couple years so he can pursue his dream and have a lot of fun, and having great stories in his eventual job interview, doesn't quite hit me as hard.

[phillychuck]

Honestly, I'd rather they modify the minor league reserve clause than increase the compensation. I think the reserve clause does more, real lasting damage. Make it harder for teams to hold onto hundreds of prospects for 6/9 years. Make them choose earlier, and free up the guys who get blocked or under-valued.

PS--Parker Frazier (pitched yesterday for the Phils) is a perfect case-study for the kind of minor leaguer we were talking about. He was a UDFA, no bonus that I can find. He's pitched in the minors without a MLB cup of coffee for 11 years. If he has only made the average salary for each level where he's played, he's taken home a bit over $400K in his career. I'll bet his pay is at least double that based on how older AA/AAA players are payed. I'd love to ask him somehow (I'll email Jim Peyton and see if he'll gently inquire). I'm sure his A and below compensation was awful, but he's made out decently well for someone in his late 20s financially who did not attend college.

[andyb]

Though I wonder how long low paid players actually play in the minors, that is, the guys who get zero or very low bonuses.

So it is OK to pay workers sub minimum wage if they only do the job a couple of years?

This is really the story of a monopoly industry that SHOULD treat its lowest wage workers better but doesn't. Then inserts a loophole into the law in the dead of night to protect themselves.

If you are outraged by the 35-year-old worker working for $10 an hour you should be outraged by this. Just because some of them eventually get paid well and some wash out does not make something right.

[phillychuck]

Andy, but this isn't exactly like a job for these guys. It's not flipping burgers at McDonalds 40 hours a week. And the GCL/NYPL/SAL/FSL sure isn't making money on the backs of these guys. Many of these games draw crowds in the low hundreds, even with comp tickets. As I've said upthread, the players are investing in possible future careers with their time in exchange for coaching, training, nutrition advice, meals, equipment, uniforms, competition opportunity, cheap rooms, off-season contacts, etc.

It really is OK to pay entry-level workers sub-minimum wage, and that is true under the most liberalized minimum wage laws in the US, if they are receiving current or future non-monetary compensation. It's also "true" under common sense.

The clubs could CHOOSE to pay players in the lower minors more, but I'm certainly not horrified by it, I don't find it corrupt, I don't find it appalling, I don't think it's an outrage, or any of the other epithetic comments made by other posters. It's a voluntary transaction between the player and the clubs. SF makes a good point that the near-monopoly status of MLB means it deserves closer scrutiny, but I think it passes any kind of scrutiny. As I've said repeatedly, the key for passing that scrutiny is current or future non-monetary compensation.

[Austinfan]

Given the low salaries, who here WOULDN'T have played minor league ball for a couple years after college (or HS) before getting on with their life, just to test out whether they were good enough and maybe befriend a future ML player (and get some free tickets down the road).

At 22, living on the edge of poverty, especially if you're single and male, isn't a huge hardship, just ask any graduate student.

[zambonir]

As I've said upthread, the players are investing in possible future careers with their time in exchange for coaching, training, nutrition advice, meals, equipment, uniforms, competition opportunity, cheap rooms, off-season contacts, etc.

My impression is they don't really get much value from all of the above. And it certainly doesn't compensate for the months of unpaid work (everything but the actual season) and unpaid overtime.

The article I posted above doesn't necessarily have the most up-to-date or accurate info, but his rough calculation is that annual salaries are:

Yearly Salary on Level
DSL: $900
Rookie: $2850
Short A: $3450
Low A: $6500
Hi A: $7500
AA: $8500
AAA: $12000

The food stipends are negligible. You have to pay for your own housing at spring training. And the housing you do get isn't that great. Four guys living in 2BR apartments, the cheap hotels. And I don't know where you are getting those numbers for Parker Frazier Phillychuck.

$12,000 a year: A minor leaguer takes his fight for fair pay public

[andyb]

Andy, but this isn't exactly like a job for these guys.

But it is. It does not matter the nature of a job. A job is a job and at a certain point it is subject to minimum wage laws. It is not really OK to pay entry level-workers sub minimum wage. And when your industry is a monopoly you can only take the internship argument so far.

[andyb]

Given the low salaries, who here WOULDN'T have played minor league ball for a couple years after college (or HS) before getting on with their life, just to test out whether they were good enough and maybe befriend a future ML player (and get some free tickets down the road).

At 22, living on the edge of poverty, especially if you're single and male, isn't a huge hardship, just ask any graduate student.

A whole lot of elitist privilege in this statement. Not a justification to break labor laws. To allow billionaires to make more money.

[zambonir]

The truth is the players are helping baseball more than baseball is helping them. Most of these guys are basically umpires (but not paid as well in the minors). Baseball needs them so they have enough bodies to field teams at every level, to support the very small percentage of players who will actually make it to the majors (or even to AA).

[schillingfan]

Given the low salaries, who here WOULDN'T have played minor league ball for a couple years after college (or HS) before getting on with their life, just to test out whether they were good enough and maybe befriend a future ML player (and get some free tickets down the road).

At 22, living on the edge of poverty, especially if you're single and male, isn't a huge hardship, just ask any graduate student.

A whole lot of elitist privilege in this statement. Not a justification to break labor laws. To allow billionaires to make more money.

Elitist when looked at from the position of a baseball player from a family who can provide some support. Between college and law school my daughter worked as an unpaid intern for our local Congressman for no pay because we could afford a few months of it. She could have parlayed that onto a job on a Democratic Congressperson's staff if she chose. The Congressman would have found her a spot somewhere. However, really difficult to do without a family to pick up rent and food (no matter how cheap). She then worked as an unpaid intern for Obama in 2008 for six months and then became a stipend intern after a month. This could have turned into a job as well. But she wanted to be a lawyer and went to law school after the primaries.

That cost her over a hundred thousand in law school loans. The jobs from the unpaid internships would ultimately have been more lucrative, and why so many people are willing to get their foot in the door. I did the same thing out of graduate school by taking a paid internship in the Governor's Office of Planning and Research.

It's also elitist for the opposite spectrum, kids from the islands, don't stick up their noses at the benefits from the academies, which among other things provide basic sustenance and health care. Those lower minor league salaries are paths on the way to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. This may be true for inner city kids as well.

I believe all non-volunteer workers should get minimum wage. I also have no problems placing dollar values on housing, food, free medical care, instruction, etc. to equal that wage (This is different from tips to waitstaff as customers, note employers pay them).

As a political commentary, internships are really bad from a sexual exploitation viewpoint, because of the disparate power statuses.

[Slinging_Southpaw]

Carlos Tocci has been informed that he'll make the Rangers' Opening Day roster.
Tocci was a Rule 5 draft pick in December, so he has to be on the 25-man roster or disabled last all year, or the Rangers will have to offer him back to the Phillies. The 21-year-old was selected by the White Sox, but traded to the Rangers shortly after the pick. He should provide some speed and defense off the bench for Texas, but not much fantasy value.

[schooldoc]

SF Giants LHP Madison Bumgarner hit by line drive, broken bone in his pitching hand.

[Austinfan]

Tocci isn't much of a loss, given we have four young OFs until Hoskins moves to 1B in a couple years, and 3 1st rd picks playing OF, plus Quinn, Ortiz and some players in the low minors with similar profiles (Matos, Muzziotti). He never was able to add enough muscle to get over .100 ISO (.091 at Reading). He also lacks Quinn's speed, so even if he could get a ML OBP up to .330 or so, he lacks the great speed to exploit it.

Tocci is a good example why just being young for your level of play doesn't make you a real prospect, you also have to have projectable physical development.

[Squire]

Notwithstanding, it is a little bizarre to me that the Rangers, who seem like they are more likely to contend in the AL West than the Phillies are in the NLEast decided that they have room on their 40 man roster for Tocci, Joseph, Alvarez (and on the 25 in the case of Tocci).

[phillychuck]

The one thing that always made Tocci stand out as a prospect is he is a truly excellent center fielder. He's Garry Maddox without quite the range Maddox had. Given his excellent defense from the time he was signed, people just keep hoping he'll develop enough offense to be a net positive.

[andyb]

Tocci is a good example why just being young for your level of play doesn't make you a real prospect, you also have to have projectable physical development.

How does that scale when he has just been deemed good enough to keep on a major league roster? That kind of confirms he is a prospect even if he is not ready yet.

Tocci IS a loss (though I still think it is 50-50 he will eventually come back). Just because we can outline several other young OF prospects does not mean losing him is not losing something of value. Was the choice to leave him unprotected correct? Probably. But that just means we were going to lose some prospect because of our depth. A loss is still a loss even if that loss is not crucial to the big club as currently constructed.

[Austinfan]

Well then, Joseph is a loss because he COULD learn how to recognize breaking balls and become a solid power hitter.

Tocci COULD develop a little gap power and plate discipline and end up .700+ OPS which would make him a marginal starter given his defense.

But in both cases their upside here was end of the bench, and taking a roster/40 spot from a better player/prospect.

[zambonir]

Seems to me these Rule V situations ruin the player more often than not when they're not ready, though obviously that's also Tyler Goedell recency bias. Herrera had already been in AA twice so it wasn't as big a jump for him. Victorino and Inciarte both thrived because they didn't end up being Rule V guys.

I agree it's amazing - if coincidental - that one decent team had room for three Phillies rejects. Do they need a catcher?