2017-18 Offseason Non-Phillies News/Notes/Discussion

[andyb]

I just want these kids to make something like $2500 a month instead of $1500 and get paid in the offseason when they are supposed to play and workout anyway.

[julio]

I just want these kids to make something like $2500 a month instead of $1500 and get paid in the offseason when they are supposed to play and workout anyway.

You and all the rest of us... or at least most of the rest of us; I'm sure there are some fans who still think these young men should be willing to play for free, just for the (very long shot) chance at a major-league career. Envy does funny things to people.

[phillychuck]

Each minor league player makes a choice as to whether the compensation and risk are worth it for him. They should be paid more from the standpoint of fairness, in my opinion, but people's opinions differ in terms of what they see as fair. Their compensation is what it is because the union doesn't care and the clubs have found that anyone who has enough talent is willing to play at these salaries (and bonus amounts depending on potential)--they are not losing many prospective major leaguers to Joe's Auto Sales or FedEx.

The union can fix this problem by taking a very small percentage of what the superstars make and redistributing it to minor league players. The clubs could fix it by redistributing profits to minor league salaries, but they have no incentive to do this since players are voluntarily willing to play at the low salaries. I'd like to see the minor leaguers make more, but I'm not willing to compel the union or the clubs to make that happen.

I honestly don't see that the minimum wage law applies to a situation like this--players receive benefits in lieu of salary--gloves, bats, uniforms, meals, cheap rooms, coaching, training, and whatever they estimate the benefit of possibly advancing to AA or above is (AA and above players get compensated pretty well).

People in many industries do this all the time by interning, often for free. Internships at financial houses like Morgan Stanley are very competitive and for a long time were not compensated at all--people did them hoping to land full-time jobs.

The low minors are a poorly-compensated internship. Two guys from my high school class were drafted, and both washed out early. Neither received a big bonus, but they both knew what they were risking. Both of them have very good jobs now (one in construction, one in casino security). Would they have liked double the salary when they were in their late teens/early 20s? Sure, but it would not have changed their decisions, nor would it have made much difference in their lifestyles.

I really don't see this as something to get exorcised about, and I would really not compare a minor league baseball player to a serf--that comparison really implies no understanding of how true serfs really lived. Minor league baseball players are interns, gambling a few of their years of service for the chance of a decent payday (in AA or AAA), a large return (at the MLB level), or a lifetime career in coaching/broadcasting/product representation.

JMHO, and, honestly, it's based not at all on envy. Just respect for the decisions these players have made, and their intelligence (and their family's intelligent advice).

[julio]

Jesus. You're endorsing paying people sub-mininum wages. You're endorsing the growing tendency of American business to substitute unpaid interns for entry-level employees.

You do know what percentage of the 8,000 or so kids in the minors are ever going to see a 40-man roster slot (a first year, $45k salary), right? These kids are "gambling a few of their years of service" on something that has about a 1% chance of paying off. Even compared to the odious abuse of unpaid internships by major corporations, this is a ridiculously bad bet.

And it's OK because kids agree to do it? It's OK to persuade young athletes to pass up college scholarships and take a one-time bonus that's eaten up by taxes and agent fees, to do this?

Yeah - if you're Bryce Harper, this can work out really nicely for you. But for 99% of these kids, it's 3 to 10 years of their lives gone. For those that skip college (and never go back, because life gets in the way), it's a lifetime of lower earnings.

I'm still a fan; I still follow the Phillies; but I'm under no illusions about the industry.

[andyb]

I disagree with some pieces of this. MLB pretty much has a monopoly if these kids want to play baseball. It is different than internships because there are multiple companies out there. What MLB is doing is also a very specific response to a lawsuit that they had a good chance of losing. They are essentially changing the law to protect themselves from losing that lawsuit.

Internships are also very different from what might be a 4-8 year minor league career. They are short term employment, not full-time employment (actual lawyers help me out here). There are very real abuses of internships too that are making companies change their practices. For instance some jobs with unpaid internships are really only open to kids with money. That gets into areas of discrimination over time. If baseball sets up terms of employment that only middle class college kids can afford, that gives them a better shot over poor kids. And that is just wrong IMHO.

[Austinfan]

Guys with long minor league careers get paid.
But the comparison isn't a job, it's sorta like an internship (except the human capital has little value).

What it's really like is another "pyramid" profession, acting.
Most actors starve trying to get their big break, but they do it both with the hope of making it big but also because acting for them isn't a job, it's what they love. And most will end up with real jobs, and act on the weekends in local theater.

So I don't see "exploitation."

[phillychuck]

julio,

Please don't put words in my mouth. If I were king of the world I'd increase minimum minor league pay by a factor of 2 or so. But I'm not.

And I don't appreciate the antagonistic, disrespectful tone from someone I've considered a friend for a long time.

But, you are being naive if you think the only pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is Bryce Harper. The chance of a rookie-ball player making a living out of baseball (reaching AA or above, getting a coaching career like Dusty Wathan, playing in Korea or Japan, using their minor league pedigree to land a high-school or college job, etc.) is very real and not insignificant. They are investing their time pretty wisely in terms of long-term repayment IMHO.

I don't tend to see this as exploitation, particularly exploitation by the clubs. The union could solve this problem just as easily, if one perceives it as a problem. I tend to think the kids are making pretty intelligent decisions when they opt to sign.

[Jeff05]

Um, Nola did an 'internship'. Most young players work in servitude for several years. C'mon, surely this is not anyone's idea of a 'good society'?!

[andyb]

Guys with long minor league careers get paid.

Not all of them - and length of career should not be an issue legally. Let's look at the LHV roster from last year and count the players who were 25 or older that had not accrued significant major league time. There were about 30 players who were age 25 or older. More than half of them did not appear in the majors (there were multiple injury rehabs.

Guys like Jose Flores, Logan Moore, Matt Williams, Nick Rickes, Harold Martinez, Hector Gomez, Christian Marrero, Casey Fein, Cesar Ramos, Pat Venditts, Wander Perez, and a few others. Some get a cup of coffee for a few years, but the bulk are career minor leaguers who might eek out a half season of major league time over a 6-10 year career.

They are not all getting paid and they did not all get big bonuses to sign.

[phillychuck]

Andy, according to pay scale.com (I'm sure that's 100% reliable ) the median AAA baseball player makes $75,000 yearly. The journeymen I knew from Reading a few years ago were making about $40K. Lots of these guys find long-term careers in baseball or baseball-related professions. And don't kid yourself, AA and AAA players get a lot of non-monetary compensation. I think the players we're talking about are low-A and below. When I get time I'll look at the BlueClaws roster last year and see which ones are likely working at a large financial hardship. I'll bet it's mostly international guys that are financially suffering since their bonuses are relatively low. And maybe 4-year senior signees.

[Austinfan]

How many 25 year old men with a HS education make $40K for 6 months work doing something they love, and if they're single (and sometimes if they not) there are, uh, certain perks (see Bull Durham) that come with the job, you know, free beers and . . .

For the college seniors, minor league ball is more a post-college lark, if it doesn't work out they get a real job in a couple years, and it's something that you can talk about in a job interview.

For the draft picks who get college included, it's a few years having fun before you buckle down.

For the LA players, many who come from dire poverty, its an opportunity, and a chance for a green card.

[Jeff05]

Austinfan, I get the impression you're not taking this issue particularly seriously. Obviously, I don't want to use an expletive, but it seems that you are 'taking the ...' to coin a phrase used in Australia.

[Austinfan]

No, I just don't see minor league baseball as exploitative.
Now the players union could insist on a minimum wage, but that's a players' choice.

I worked as a graduate assistant for $1,000 month, and there were no perks, and grading freshmen papers isn't much fun.

The players with college money do it for fun, because they have college as a fallback. And it's the most fun you can have working your way through college. The college seniors have real options (check the unemployment rate), so you know they're doing it for fun.

The HS kids for the most part don't have a lot of great options in any case, I mean unless you're in a skilled profession like plumbing or electrician (and at that age you're an underpaid apprentice) we're talking $10-12/hr? Minor league players are local celebrities, which opens up job opportunities and provide connections. And you can always take that crummy job if your baseball career doesn't work out.

[julio]

Now the players union could insist on a minimum wage, but that's a players' choice.

Players who are not on 40-man rosters (that's the large majority of minor-league players) are not members of the MLBPA, are not eligible to be members of the MLBPA, and their interests are not represented by the MLBPA.

How would you react to a movement to establish a minor league players' union? How do you think fans in general would react? How would MLB (Commissioner's Office, clubs, even MLBPA) react?

This discussion was triggered by an effort by MLB, lobbying Congress, to obtain preferential legislation - legislation that protects major league ballclubs from spending a bit more money on minor league salaries. When I say "a bit more money," I'm talking about increasing salaries for something on the order of 100 kids per club - at an increased outlay of what...$10k per player? That's $1 million per club - less than the cost of an average middle reliever.

MLB went to Congress to avoid spending this meager amount of money on these kids. Congress gave them what they wanted.

If this doesn't seem like an outrage to any of you...well, I just don't understand. I really don't.

[phillychuck]

The MLBPA talked about establishing a fund to enhance minor league salaries a few years ago (maybe 10 or 15), which they can do, but they decided it wasn't their responsibility.

Just because businesses could give more money to minor league players doesn't mean they should do that. The minor leaguer isn't being compelled to play. What businesses voluntarily pay higher salaries than they need to in order to acquire labor? I don't think it's that common.

I'd prefer to see the pot of salaries split more evenly between stars and major league journeymen, and between major leaguers and minor leaguers, but I don't think it's something that I should compel legally. It's not the same kind of work as a line chef at McDonald's--there are a lot of non-monetary compensations (which for some reason continue to be ignored), there are a lot of future opportunities, and there is the possible, if remote, chance of a pretty substantial jackpot. I don't know how to factor those things in financially, so I trust the players, their agents, and their families to make that decision.

It's no where near as big an outrage as public stadium funding, if we're talking about sports-related outrages.

[julio]

Just because businesses could give more money to minor league players doesn't mean they should do that. The minor leaguer isn't being compelled to play. What businesses voluntarily pay higher salaries than they need to in order to acquire labor? I don't think it's that common.

Is this an argument against the concept of a minimum wage in general? It could be read that way, although I'm guessing that's not your intent.

I would argue that minimum wage laws exist precisely because, in a capitalist system, businesses would not, in fact, pay higher salaries than they "need to in order to acquire labor" - and that minimum wage laws were enacted because, in practice, our capitalist system resulted in lots of labor being trapped in abject poverty, while wealth accumulated more and more to the few.

Remember, what we're talking about here is an effort by MLB - an apparently successful effort - to persuade Congress that MLB should be exempt from federal minimum wage laws.

It's no where near as big an outrage as public stadium funding, if we're talking about sports-related outrages.

Well, that's debatable - but I get where you're coming from with regard to this!

[zambonir]

Even if you factor in the players who hang on longer or end up with jobs in baseball I don't think you are looking at significant number of players, given how many wash out long before high A.

There does need to be a minor league baseball union. Hockey has a very good one, with CBAs in both the AHL and the ECHL, but the majority of their membership isn't the property of an NHL club, so they are not beholden to NHL teams or to future/present NHL players, they can genuinely serve the needs of minor leagues, whereas in baseball what the system really says is, if you aren't going to go on to a major league career, you don't matter, you failed, and you didn't deserve good working conditions along the way.

I know a lot of hockey players who played in a non-union league for 300 bucks a week and that was their choice, just as anyone can choose to play in the Atlantic League. But with all the money MLB has it's appalling they don't do better and extra appalling they have fought so hard over this.

And then, of course, even the guys who do have the pot of gold at the end of the tunnel get a smaller pot with the service time manipulation. This is worth a read:

Ronald Acuña's Stupid Demotion And The Things We Don't Even Notice Anymore

This is how corruption works, and perpetuates itself. It becomes as inexorable and non-negotiable as the weather. In the broader experiential sense, and in the case of Acuña’s inevitable demotion, it’s also how corruption feels—the sense that powerful parties have simply chosen to ignore the rules, secure in the knowledge that they will face no real repercussions for any of it. Because this is not unique to baseball, and is in fact something like the defining condition of contemporary political life, it is easy not to notice this. It’s simpler, if not notably more satisfying, just to shift assumptions accordingly—to believe that everyone in a position to do so is looting shamelessly, that rules will be selectively and unsatisfyingly enforced if they’re enforced at all, that it’s a business is to be understood only in the most Hobbesian and amoral sense.

It seems important, now more than ever, not to do this. What the Braves are doing with Ronald Acuña is normal, by this point, but that does not mean there’s anything natural or just about it. There’s no reason to let the rotten broader context justify the unjustifiable. It’s true that there’s only so much to do about shit like this. One good place to start, it seems to me, is not passively accepting it as the way things work. It’s not. It’s the opposite.

[Austinfan]

This is hyperbole, the Braves aren't ignoring the rules they're using the rules.
The Union needs to hire better lawyers.

The real problem is the biggest agents don't care, their focus is a big payday for a select few players and screw the rest, and the rank and file players haven't caught on that they need to lock the big agents out of the room when it comes to developing their negotiating positions. What they should do:

1) Focus on raising minimum salaries, better benefits, and minimum club payrolls (with some ability to roll money forward as in the NFL so that rebuilding teams don't have to piss away money on bad free agents).

2) Accept limits on free agent deals as the tradeoff for a higher guaranteed portion of revenues (i.e. like the NBA, maximum amounts/contract lengths - it benefits all players when overspends on free agents are limited, freeing up money for other players).

3) Accept a hard cap in return for more revenue sharing.

4) Improve working conditions for minor leagues, that requires major leaguers to care about something other than themselves.

[julio]

The real problem is the biggest agents don't care

I don't wish to absolve player agents of some responsibility.... BUT... saying "the real problem is the biggest agents" is also saying that ownership/management willingness to maximize profits by paying sub-minimum wages - and spending a great deal of money lobbying Congress to guarantee they can pay sub-minimum wages - is somehow not part of the real problem, that they do not have any real responsibility here.

[zambonir]

Here's another article about minor league pay.

Baseball Booms, Minor Leaguers Still Exploited