The New Unending Flyers thread

[Austinfan]

People confuse two strategies:
1) get your team to play strong fundamental hockey in an aggressive scheme, and thus win games.
2) try to get your team over the hump by trading/using major assets to win now.

In the first case, as long as the playoff push is led by young players, it's good experience for them, as would a 1st rd PO exit. This doesn't mean you don't trade some veterans at the TDL if players in LHV are ready to step up in their place. But realistically, what are you going to get? Walker, 2nd? Seeler 3rd, Staal, 5th, Laughton late 1st/early 2nd, Hathaway 3rd? Atkinson would be hard to move at the TDL (easier in the summer), ditto with Risto.

[zambonir]

I don't think anyone confuses them, but you also can't separate them. You can be in a position to make the playoffs and still choose not to add talent. You can also choose to shed talent, even if it means missing the playoffs. And you can pursue that result on purpose, if being in the lottery is better for the long-term future of the team than disappointing the current coach and roster. Including still trading some names not on your list above, some of whom otherwise have to be re-signed in the long run too.

[phillychuck]

Phillies did this once, shed talent in a playoff race, then played far better with young, unproven guys playing instead. I can't remember details, but I think it was when they traded Abreu in 2006, and David Delucci had a career year replacing him.

[zambonir]

Sort of. Delucci (who was already older than Abreu) still only got 301 ABs that season and was not as good in the second half. And when it turned out they were still competitive Gillick immediately pivoted and acquired Jamie Moyer and Jeff Conine.

Abreu they not only got very little for but had to throw in Lidle to get the deal done. The also dumped David Bell that July. The story the Phillies tell about that year is that trading Abreu made it Rollins, Howard and Utley's team but there weren't really any other players who emerged after the trade (Vic was already playing regularly, so was Abe Nunez, Lieby was still there but so was Coste and eventually Chooch).

In the end it didn't matter whether they made the playoffs or not (and they didn't) but it did help lay a foundation.

[phillychuck]

Maybe the Flyers can move guys and lay a winning foundation. Brier seems convinced that's the way to go, anyway.

[Aquapong]

Nice to have two wins against the evil Penguins. Hopefully that will get us on a roll.

Walker and Seeler could be trade chips later in the season if we’re not fighting for a playoff spot.

[phillychuck]

Really good hockey game yesterday. Hart was a freaking wall all night.

[Aquapong]

Why are you worried about Cutter? It would seem he’d be joining an exciting young core and with Mitchkov still in the wings.

Don’t look now but the Flyers are third in the Metro and only a point out of second

[xogfog]

Flyers with a nice road win at Colorado, that's four in a row. Not sure how to feel about this team. They are playing really well but there is still a rebuild going on and they have a few tradable pieces.

[Austinfan]

Fletcher traded for Braun and Niskanen, signed Hayes to a big contract, got a one year bounce out of AV.
Briere traded Provorov, for 1st, (2) 2nds, Walker, Grans and a salary dump, Hayes and TDA for 5th, 6th, Rizzo and the cap room to carry Pederson, signed Hathaway and Poehling to low cost deals, and Torts has a history of sustained improvement (TB, CBJ).
Difference is Flyers both improved and added assets - and they're pretty clear they won't be buying rentals at the TDL.

Bummer for those fixated on a tank, but for those who think you can improve with coaching, scouting and development,a big win. Flyers are getting great production out of young players, they either extend Walker on a reasonable deal or move him at the TDL, move Seeler at the TDL if Zamula is deemed ready, etc. At worst they stand pat, make the playoffs and still have (2) 1st rd picks and Gauthier, Bonk and Michkov in the pipeline.

[Aquapong]

If they Flyers are still in it at the trade deadline, I’m not sure Seeler, Walker, or, Atkinson is going to bring a serious haul that would be worth messing with the chemistry of the team. TK or Hart would bring a haul, but we’re certainly not going anywhere in the playoffs without them.

[Docs]

People are concerned about cutter because he skipped the development camp. I’m not worried and am excited for him to be part of this teams future.

What’s happening with the flyers right now is best case scenario- their young players are logging valuable minutes and contributing to winning games. Just as important, they are establishing a positive culture.

Worst case scenario would be signing veterans to take that playing time and trading valuable future picks or young players for rentals to squeeze into the playoffs. But if their current young players can win then what they have is more valuable than some extra draft picks, it means they already have players on the roster that they would be looking for in the draft.

I would not gut this team for the sake of acquiring a few late lottery tickets. They have young players playing well, this is great and a pleasant surprise. If they get a too good to be true deal then take it, otherwise don’t force anything.

[VoteForKalas]

It is a real test for management and ownership. They stated this was a rebuild and it needs to be.

Their history is to short circuit every rebuild for financial reasons and fail because of it.

They better not do that again or they may lose the fan base forever. The young players are doing well, but they still are not likely to make the playoffs or do anything even if they get there.

The focus needs to be on the bigger picture - building a team capable of winning the Cup, not just "competing" for a playoff spot. I hope they follow through and do not mess it up again.

[zambonir]

Not even financial reasons really, the barn was always going to be full until the recent years of collapse and I'm sure the sponsors and advertisers wouldn't have fluctuated much either (especially since the RSN also owns the team). Just, ego and sentimentality and impatience.

I still think that playoff run in 2016 was a mistake and that was also a year in which they neither bought or sold when they could have traded Simmonds, Schenn, and most notably, Streit.

[VoteForKalas]

Not even financial reasons really, the barn was always going to be full until the recent years of collapse and I'm sure the sponsors and advertisers wouldn't have fluctuated much either (especially since the RSN also owns the team). Just, ego and sentimentality and impatience.

You're right the fans hung in there despite reality for many years until 2019-20 when attendance started to slide.

I agree ego, impatience etc. played a part in their decisions, but they were also driven by financial concerns especially in regard to rebuilds. They were scared to start one because they feared the fans, sponsors, corporate box holders etc. would back off on their support.

This is why Hextall was told to rebuild on the fly while still icing a winning team and why he was replaced by Fletcher who would toe their line. They had to be able to continue telling people it was a product worth seeing and investing in.

Money is what they care about the most. For Comcast, the Flyers need to be a money maker or it becomes more liability than asset. So far this year, attendance is back up over 91% which is a slight improvement over last season and significantly better than the year before that. If that trend continues and the money is flowing in, the support for the rebuild should continue, but, if not, watch out.

[zambonir]

It was mostly just because Mr. Snider was still alive too. And then the Clarke etc. troika got one last run. Ironically, the collapse of the fan base sort of proves they weren't wrong that a lot of fans would go away if the team stunk. I'm not sure it matters if it had been by design or not.

Latest Athletic story covers the current reality actually.

'I don’t think anybody wants us to win': Surprising Flyers driven by doubters

The Flyers coach reiterated that even with their success through what is now one-third of the regular season, the overall organizational philosophy is not going to change. You can be sure that will continue to be echoed by general manager Danny Briere over the next few weeks and months, too, whenever he’s asked about it. There is no outside help coming, and it’s still much more likely the Flyers will subtract from their roster at some point to add assets for the future.

But what also has to be acknowledged is the Flyers are a better team than just about everyone figured they would be at this stage of their rebuild.

[Austinfan]

I figured 80-85 points before the season, now it looks more like 90-95. Either way, they weren't picking in the top 5. Nor do they have to, they had a deep draft last year, they should have another deep draft this year - build quantity and down the road you can package players and picks for key acquisitions (see Vegas). You don't have to hit on a lot of picks outside the 1st rd, one or two a year and you can build solid organizational depth. What you can't do is miss on the 1st rounders.

[VoteForKalas]

Jakub Vrana will be released by the Blues. If I'm in charge of the Flyers, I'd pick him up. Has talent and is still young enough to develop further.

[zambonir]

Ha, the Flyers are probably too good to get him if there's interest (though nobody made a trade offer the Blues were willing to take obviously. I assume either teams figure they can get him for nothing or don't want to give up much for him, especially since he will be a UFA).

[Austinfan]

Flyers won't be interested in Vrana, one dimensional player who doesn't play defense, a horrible fit with Torts.

People think he's a defense first HC, but he's more a fundamentals first HC, take care of your responsibilities, play smart and he'll encourage you to take risks on offense, but if you screw up, you'd better back check at top speed.