The New New Unending Flyers thread

[zambonir]

I wouldn't say he's making excuses because the team had no business trying to make the playoffs. They did not acquire Cal Peterson to win games either. I think Torts has done exactly what they wanted him to do even if it wasn't what he was originally hired to do. They play hard, some guys have worked out and some guys haven't, and the wheat from the chaff process involves everybody.

[Docs]

I will open myself to ridicule, I think Carter Hart was a difference maker. And at one point, I thought they had three players to build the franchise around, Hart, Michkov, and Cutter. Now they only have one of those guys. In my opinion, if he finishes the season, the Flyers make the playoffs. I think that’s true, I think he was so good that he masked a lot of problems, and in the end, as we’ve said, over and over, making the playoffs and getting swept in the first round Doesn’t help you build your roster. So who cares if he was a difference maker and they make the playoffs last year.

[zambonir]

Nothing ridiculous about it, that was certainly Hart's ceiling. It would have been a tough call to dump him in a rebuild, but also not an automatic call to re-sign him in unrestricted free agency down the line. Some of his inconsistency and off-ice struggles (remember he also had a really hard time during the COVID year) may have also been related to the World Juniors thing, whether he turns out to be guilty of a crime or not.

If he finishes the season they make the playoffs if they also kept Walker, I think. Maybe, if they didn't. Certainly the way Ersson played down the stretch cost them from sneaking in without Walker.

In any case to me the two biggest mistakes the Flyers have made since their last Cup final appearance was trying to make the playoffs under Hakstol when Snider was still alive, instead of rebuilding, and then fooling themselves into thinking they were a contender after the bubble playoffs, instead of rebuilding. So while Torts may not have been actively trying to coach a sub.-500 team, I applaud that it has been one (and last year's better record was still a failure in some ways as they could have been drafting high as this one).

It still may be time to move on, which is fine. If you know he's not the coach in 2026-2027 and he's not going to move into the front office, get it done. Of course he could also quit, if they won't extend him or he digs in his heels about Thompson (who he defended in that interview, and not incorrectly in that I'm sure he's a perfectly fine coach and hard worker whose role is also much greater than the PP, but just like the hitting coach in baseball, sometimes ya gotta go).

[VoteForKalas]

If we are going to fire Torts who has done an admirable job in a very tough situation, there needs to be a better option to take over.

Who is that better option? And, more importantly, what better option is coming here to PHL during a rebuild that may or may not succeed?

The PP needs to be fixed, in coaching, scheme, talent and execution. Rocky Thompson should have been fired last season if not before. With TK, Michkov, Tippett, Drysdale, Foerster, Brink, Couturier, they should not be last in the league again. However, eventually the talent level does need to be increased too.

The PK has slid downhill this season, ranking 17th now after being 4th in 2023. This is talent dependent too, but the slide had already taken place before we traded Laughton, Frost and Farabee. Walker was a factor and certainly the weaker goaltending due to the loss of Hart and inconsistency of Ersson played a role.

Teams have also adjusted to the Flyers scoring on the rush and not allowed that to happen as much. Force the Flyers to play dump & chase and you can handle them easily. They do not have guys who can carry it into the zone consistently and you do not need to worry about taking penalties.

[VoteForKalas]

In any case to me the two biggest mistakes the Flyers have made since their last Cup final appearance was trying to make the playoffs under Hakstol when Snider was still alive, instead of rebuilding, and then fooling themselves into thinking they were a contender after the bubble playoffs, instead of rebuilding.

Dead on right.

[LegoDoom]

The Flyers should move on from Torts.

Blaming him for the complete lack of talent and depth is also not a great take.

In some cases the talent on this team probably deserved to be worse than they have been.

I'm not blaming Torts for the lack of talent, but for someone that is known for helping younger players develop, he sure does seem to suck at it.

The rebuild should have started with G and it didn't.

[zambonir]

Well, the Flyers still being the Flyers they'd probably just promote Lappy. But yeah, otherwise, it's a great question - is this the right time to land either a great proven coach or a rising coaching star, and if the former (for instance, AF's pet theory) how will he even be that different from Torts

I don't know that Torts was ever known for developing young players. He just happened to do it in Tampa. He's just as well-known for breaking them. But clearly the Flyers wanted that. And you can't say he hasn't done a good job with the guys who have worked out, and that includes Michkov (whom he was probably never expected to get a chance to coach in the first place).

[LegoDoom]

I probably would have handled young players better, but he's been ok.

However, you don't bench young players for stretches like he did with Farabee, Michkov, and Frost.

Carter Hart is not the difference maker. Sure, the team would have won more games with him, but is that a good thing?

[Docs]

and then fooling themselves into thinking they were a contender after the bubble playoffs

Who knew Matt Niskanen was the NHL’s most valuable player in 2020?

[Austinfan]

There's a lot of myths about Torts

1) players hate him, there were two former players who criticized him, a scrub who I can't remember, and Dubinsky, who he demoted to 3C behind two young centers (Jenner and Wennberg) and who was out of the league two years later. A lot of his former players laud him.

2) players he got rid of or left him went on to success elsewhere. Seth Jones had his best seasons under Torts, for example. The one player was Karlsson, who had an outlier season, but that was more about being blocked by other young centers and getting a chance to play in Vegas, and he settled back as a 3C after one big season fueled by an unsustainable Sh%. Panarin scored more under Torts than in Chicago, and a little more in NY with better linemates. Dubois bounced around before his big season this year, 5 years after leaving Torts for money. Johansen was a headcase whereever he went, which is why Torts quickly got him out of town.

3) he prefers veterans. Actually, Torts' best coaching was in TB and CBJ, with young teams. Van was a disaster, and NYR he plateaued. I think b/c a lot of veterans are set in their ways, and he doesn't coddle egos. Young players are easier to mold. Young players play more minutes than Hathaway or Seeler, DeLo has been nailed to the bench.

Is he the long-term solution? Probably not. But he has a lot of young players playing smart, disciplined, fundamentally sound hockey. He's not a defense first guy like Hakstol, right now, they play more conservative b/c they don't have the talent to play wide open against good teams. But give him the horses and he'll be more aggressive.

TK, Sanheim, York, Risto, Cates, Foerster, Brink, Poehling have all improved under him, Zamula, Andrae, Drysdale are developing nicely. People complain how he handles Michkov, he gives Michkov a lot of latitude but holds him accountable for his mistakes - as far as limiting his minutes, check how TB handled Kucherov at 19-20. Don't want to run the talented rookie into the ground.

He gave Frost and Farabee plenty of opportunity to nail down top 6 jobs. But there's only so much patience before you move on. Ask Moniak and Haseley.

[LegoDoom]

TK is a hard no.

[LegoDoom]

Drysdale is progressing when healthy because he's always been a great player.

[Austinfan]

No he hasn't, he sucked in Anaheim, much like Risto in Buffalo.
He was absolutely clueless when he came to Philly.

TK is headed toward a career high in points, minutes played. His three highest scoring seasons will be under Torts, despite the lack of a top 6 center.

He's been overused this season, adding the PK was a bit too much, but he's always been a streaky scorer.
If he had a top 6 center and an above average PP, he'd probably be top ten in scoring.

[LegoDoom]

Drysdale put up 32 points as a 19 year old.

And please don't try to make an argument that Couts isn't a top center.

[bigegypt0417]

Flyers lose....Buffalo and preds win.

Yay tanking!

[bigegypt0417]

When was the last season couts was a top center?

[phillychuck]

Couts was a top center before his injury, now he's barely adequate as a top-6 center, probably moving to wing soon where his skating won't hurt as much.

[LegoDoom]

Your contention is that wings need less speed than centers? That's interesting.

[bkeich]

Your contention is that wings need less speed than centers? That's interesting.

I think what he is saying is that a slow center basically cripples the offense. A slow wing can still have value with strength or scoring ability (think John LeClair type).

Speed is important for Wings, but it can be compensated for. Lack of speed for a center is hard to overcome. There are exceptions of course, but it really requires a great passer.

[LegoDoom]

And that's likely not true. Couts has never been a fast skater and he pushed G to the wing. There is a lot more to being a center than that. Faceoffs, defense, and passing. Speed is probably the last on the list.