Phillies 2017 Spring Training Discussion

[BtownFan]

Nava made the team off a good spring, but also because there was no one else.Coughlan and the veteran catchers didn't look good. Valentin is too valuable to stash on the bench rather than let him start everyday at Lehigh and see if he can develop further.Quinn needs at least 300 PA in AAA ball.Goeddel isn't ready for even a bench role.

With Kendrick in LF, Nava becomes the "second" IF off the bench (that is, he allows Kendrick to move back to the IF).Stassi provides a LH power bat off the bench and a defensive substitute at 1B.So Nava is a placeholder who can help this year. Nothing more. Trading him would be a bonus, but probably not part of Klentak's decisionmaking.

Klentak didn't expect to protect Asher, Goeddel or Sev at the end of this season, so he doesn't care if they're claimed or traded for a rosin bag.

I've been out of the country, so after reading all of posts on the marginality of Nava, I was happy to see this post, Austinfan. They used him a lot off the bench and as a PH in ST, so his role seemed fairly clear to me if he made the team. A veteran bench player in addition to Blanco is not a bad thing for younger players to see. Being able to hit from both sides of the plate helps as does his gritty play and underdog story. I suspect the Phils were rooting for Coughlin to return to something halfway to his rookie-year play, but that didn't happen.

[Philsmania]

I missed a tie. The Phillies actually went 14-17-5 in Grapefruit play. 3-5-2 in the last 10 non-split squad games when you really start to see the team that is going to start the season.

[allentown]

With Kendrick in LF, Nava becomes the "second" IF off the bench (that is, he allows Kendrick to move back to the IF).

Yes, but I don't think Kendrick should be in LF. Altherr is ready. The big thing he needed to show this ST is that he is recovered from the wrist injury. He did that. I want Altherr to get 80% of this season's ABs at one of the corner OF positions. It doesn't bother me if Kendrick is a PH, a part-time 2B sub, even if he gets 20% of the LF ABs, but clearly that is not what Pete has in mind. Some say a vet doesn't need to earn a job in ST. To my mind, a vet who stank last year most definitely should have to earn a starting job in ST. Kendrick hasn't done this. I don't care if he is bound to be a better starter than Bourjois was, because Altherr certainly will be and Bourjois was a complete joke. I'm not sure Kendrick will be better than Asche, but Asche wasn't good enough.

[donaldorc]

Phils didn't have exhibition games this year at CBP the weekend before opening day. This has gone on for quite a few years now, probably since the new park was built. Anyone see any explanation for this?

[Austinfan]

I wouldn't sweat it.
Mac was in awe of Altherr's blast over the center field barrier the other day.
Tells me he'll find a way to get Altherr's bat in the lineup. It's hard to keep power and plus fielding on the bench.
My crystal ball says Kendrick/Saunders platooning in LF by June.

[DurhamBull]

Altherr's HR the other day was impressive indeed. Over the batter's eye in CF.

On another note, a question for those of you who watch the games -- I saw a brief video of Galvis the other day (hitting a HR, ironically) and his footwork looked all out of whack like it was at the beginning of last season. I don't want to read too much into one plate appearance, but one of the things that helped Galvis to improve in the second half of last season was finding a consistent and conventional way to use his lower body. If he's lost his way again there, it doesn't bode well. Any observations from you game watchers?

[allentown]

June is WAY too late. Altherr is hot now. By June he'll be iced.

[Austinfan]

If he's "iced" that easily, he's not a future starter.

[zambonir]

Altherr will get his 2-3 starts and another six or eight ABs a week. But what if Kendrick is good? If he's bad, it will work out fairly quickly. And yeah, if Altherr isn't hitting, saying that it's only because he wasn't allowed to start isn't gonna cut it. He still has to perform as well as, say, John Mayberry Jr. (at his best), not Dom Brown (at his worst).

I assume there were no games at CBP this year because of the WBC and longer spring training. Probably wasn't worth doing for just one game when they were also opening on the road. Also think it's kind of weird they'd go to Philly and then Cincinnati but I guess that's a lot easier for the equipment managers and probably has some symbolic impact - see your locker for the first time, meet once as a team at home, then get to work.

[allentown]

Right, of course not. We've become used to the Phillies destroying prospects in this manner.

[phillychuck]

If he's "iced" that easily, he's not a future starter.

I disagree with you here. There is a big difference to player's sharpness when they play regularly compared to playing once or twice a week. It's not unusual for a young player to be "iced" when he isn't playing regularly--he loses his rhythm and he doesn't pick up pitches as well. That's why veterans often make better bench players, those skills are better established. I think Altherr has regular corner OF potential, but he'll need breaks to capitalize on that potential. He's the kind of prospect where two-three months of irregular playing time might have pretty negative consequences.

[BostonRoss]

Whom did the Phillies destroy?

[Austinfan]

Hernandez, Galvis, Joseph, Rupp . . .

D Brown got a number of extended shots, so did Asche. Goeddel played his way out of the lineup.

During the course of a season, injuries will give bench players a chance to play for a stretch, even if you're rusty the first couple games, talent will out (or not).
And in Altherr's case, he has a huge advantage over Brown, Asche and Goeddel, his defense is so good he'll get the benefit of the doubt on his hitting, if it's just marginal, Mac will want to keep him on the field, he's a better OF than anyone we've had out there since Victorino left town.

If Altherr is 100%, and Stairs has improved his stroke, he'll force his way into the lineup, guys who hit 450 foot HRs, have great instincts in the field and a plus arm tend to make managers, especially old school managers like Mac, fall in love.

[andyb]

Hernandez had to wait behind Utley. But Galvis was never as good as Rollins when they were on the same team. Joseph was hurt. And Rupp was mediocre until the last 2 years.

It is a little bit fiction that the Phillies bury prospects. Ruf does not count because he was never really a prospect. Do they give the tie to the veteran - yes. Just like most other organizations. The biggest thing is that the Phillies have not really had a bunch of decent prospects until recently.

Altherr deserves playing time and a chance to win a job this year. I hope they move Kendrick out if he plays well. But also remember that Altherr was not good last year. At a certain point jobs need to be won. I think Altherr will win a job this year. But on the other hand I am not sure he is as good as either Quinn or Williams long term.

[BostonRoss]

Hernandez had to wait behind Utley. But Galvis was never as good as Rollins when they were on the same team. Joseph was hurt. And Rupp was mediocre until the last 2 years.

It is a little bit fiction that the Phillies bury prospects. Ruf does not count because he was never really a prospect. Do they give the tie to the veteran - yes. Just like most other organizations. The biggest thing is that the Phillies have not really had a bunch of decent prospects until recently.

Altherr deserves playing time and a chance to win a job this year. I hope they move Kendrick out if he plays well. But also remember that Altherr was not good last year. At a certain point jobs need to be won. I think Altherr will win a job this year. But on the other hand I am not sure he is as good as either Quinn or Williams long term.

Very well said. I agree on all counts. It's easy when we're focused on the Phillies not to notice that all teams treat prospects similarly (depending on how good their team is, and how good the prospects are). And it's easy to forget that most prospects who are not elite fail.

[allentown]

Domonic Brown. I know many don't agree with me about Brown and I agree that we'll never know whether his career would be any better than it was had the Phillies treated him better. I do know that I saw him play RF at both Reading and Allentown and that he was a competent defensive RF. I also know that he was a very good hitter at both Allentown and Reading after hitting well at both Lakewood and CLW. I know he put up very good offensive numbers in Philly in 2013. Losing RF to Delmon Young, who is a horrible RF, was a serious blow, as was losing playing time. The Phillies coddle vets a lot more than they coddle youth. In my experience as a manager, it is the young who need coddling. Some posters are great believers on the tough love approach to rookies and declare that if this approach doesn't work and they don't recover from it then they were just never going to be successful anyway. I think that is far from proven. It is certainly contrary to modern management theory. Just as Delmon Young was not enough of a player to be allowed to impede the development of a prized young player in any way, Kendrick is not a good enough player to be allowed to impede Altherr's progress one iota.

[Philsmania]

Phils didn't have exhibition games this year at CBP the weekend before opening day. This has gone on for quite a few years now, probably since the new park was built. Anyone see any explanation for this?

Yes, this is the first season since they moved into CBP that they did not have an on-deck series. No idea why it was cut. Frankly, I didn't miss it. As a partial season ticket holder, I didn't appreciate having an exhibition game foisted on me every third year. Having said that, I thought it would have been neat if they played one against the IronPigs or Phillies Futures in Allentown.

[zambonir]

Brown was certainly mishandled some along the way, perhaps more so early rather than late (the premature call-up, being behind Ibanez and Pence). He also may have never truly recovered from his injury, and certainly was never able to adjust to the major leagues once he did get a chance. But it's doubtful that being moved from RF to LF was the thing that prevented him from making those adjustments (as a hitter).

If Altherr is capable of recovering from missing more than half a season (and hitting horribly during the shorter half), two-three months of part-time play isn't going to bury him. He is admittedly missing a chance to prove that he is more than just a 4th OF before Williams and Quinn need playing time as well but I think it's safe to say that's simply how the Phillies see him. It's not that they prefer Kendrick or Saunders, it's that Herrera (as a CF) and Quinn both were higher on the projected 2018 depth chart going into ST.

[BostonRoss]

As you say, we'll never know about Brown, and so I can't say you're wrong. But it does seem unlikely to me that if the talent he seemed to have as a top minor league prospect could translate to major league success, the switch to LF (and some yoyoing between the majors and minors that was going on before the switch) should not have been enough to ruin his career. Perhaps he just wasn't good enough after all, or maybe (as zambonir noted) the injury was a big issue.

But whether or not Brown was truly ruined, I still don't see a pattern of this having happened with other Phillies prospects. For example, I don't think that Utley was used particularly well by the Phillies early in his career, and he turned out well. And there were certainly lesser prospects over the years that were not given full shots, but since most lesser prospects fail anyway, it seems very unlikely that they would have had successful careers had they been handled differently. (Of course, they haven't had many top prospects lately.) And while I like Altherr, he is certainly not a prospect at the level of Brown or Utley.

I don't have much use for Kendrick myself, but I don't think that if Altherr's shot comes a few months later either because Kendrick fails and is replaced by Altherr, or Kendrick ends up getting traded, that it will have much long term effect on his career.

[zambonir]

Kendrick has really turned into the fall guy here (without even taking his first AB) but honestly, if you want to see Altherr play more, Saunders is the guy to watch. He had a reverse platoon split last year but generally speaking it would make sense for him to sit aganst lefties if he isn't hot. I think Nava and Stassi will get most of the back-up starts in LF, both for platoon purposes and because they aren't great fielders, and they would love to see Williams there by July. The scenario of Kendrick being eased into a utility role or even making the occasional start elsewhere is, I think, highly unlikely, not because he was supposedly promised he'd only play LF, but because there's just no need for him at 1B or 2B (Joseph is right-handed, Hernandez hits lefties great).

And of course, Herrera is an iron man.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens, really. It will be a test of Klentak's regime. Whether he and his scouts were correct to think Kendrick had something left (or to value his intangibles), and what he and the manager do if either of the corner guys disappoint. Mackanin kind of insulted Peter Bourjos the other day when he said he had enough good hitters this year that he didn't have to hit the pitcher eighth this year (which I also think is a funny thing to say because that's not the reason you do it, strategically) so let's see if he's right.

As I think I've said before I would have been perfectly happy with an all-homegrown OF (well, Herrera not truly homegrown) and another 65-70 win season, but it seems Middleton and MacPhail felt otherwise. I think AF is right about Altherr ending up getting a lot of play because of defense, however, because I think defense is going to be a problem, particularly if the pitching hits any bumps. Last year pitching and defense is what won them games (and a lot of one-run games) during their hot streak, this year, we'll see if the runs are going to exist to make up for any drop-off.