Odubel Herrera Arrested in AC; Charged with Domestic Violence

[zambonir]

Are you suggesting the US is not a patriarchal society?

[flyers19rw]

Are you suggesting that it is?

[Jeff05]

I'm cool with sociology. Can you offer some studies or statistical data for consideration? If I were to do a sociological study, I wouldn't begin by conflating the US and Canada, and the Latin American countries. To do so, would forgo nuance and the possibility of identifying patterns, whether quantitative or qualitative. I also suspect more accurate figures would be available in the US and Canada, than in less developed countries. With regard to your suggestion that we study domestic violence in "patriarchal versus gender-neutral societies", I'm loathe to categorise Australia, Ireland, France, the United States and Canada as ideal-types of gender neutral societies. Here, I vaguely recall the comparative analyses by Erik Olin Wright and others into household divisions of labour and gender inequality, more generally. A continuum is probably in order.

[It's taken me so long to write this, zambonir has already asked the obvious question!]

From Wikipedia (because I'm too tired to quote from Weber), "Patriarchy is a social system in which men hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property. Some patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage." The political leaders of the US are predominantly male, as are the leaders of most of the religious orders and business groups. The fact that countries, such as the US and Australia, have to legislate against patriarchy makes it clear (to me, at least) that our societies, in general, are not gender-neutral.

[zambonir]

ask some women.

[zambonir]

This is why I never go into the politics thread Even though all sports is political anyway.

For sure, the climate is changing. Why, we even let women have their own bank accounts eventually!

But seriously, when I revived this thread because of the Taubman thing it was to suggest that becaus the climate is changing, there is no scenario where a struggling player with a DV accusation can be kept around, and we may also be moving towards a scenario where even a great player with a DV accusation will be untradeable. But in the meantime we're still gonna watch the Astros' close lock down a World Series. Maybe.

[Philsmania]

But seriously, when I revived this thread because of the Taubman thing it was to suggest that becaus the climate is changing, there is no scenario where a struggling player with a DV accusation can be kept around, and we may also be moving towards a scenario where even a great player with a DV accusation will be untradeable. But in the meantime we're still gonna watch the Astros' close lock down a World Series. Maybe.

It will be interesting to see if one concession the players make to the owners in the next CBA is to allow clubs to void the contracts of guys in these situations.

[allentown]

I wouldn't say that American society isn't still patriarchal, but it's changing fairly rapidly in much of the country. Not all that long ago, it was legally impossible to charge a man with raping his wife, about the only women in Congress were replacing their deceased husbands, and it would be unthinkable for a woman to run for president. Powerful men felt absolutely safe in harrassing and sexuallly assaulting women -- their employers protected them and the authorities took complaints less than seriously. #MeToo has changed attitudes a lot of late, but the changes started earlier. A lot of the patriarchy can be laid at the feet of religion. Southern white evangelical churches teach that the husband is the head of the family and wives must submit to his decisions and it is ungodly for a woman to be in power over men. There are no female priests. The first female rabbi in the United States gained a congregation during my lifetime. Still, Latin American culture has been more macho and patriarchal than ours, probably stemming from the culture of the conquistadors. Look at the fate of women escaping Central America due to violence and being assaulted as they transit Mexico. LA isn't the world's most patriarchal/macho societies. They haven't enshrined 'honor killings' into their culture.

There are differences of degree among cultures. There are also fairly large differences within a culture over the period of a decade or two. Brett Myers was mentioned above. Does anyone doubt that would go down very differently today? Perhaps the atmosphere has changed so much that he would think better of doing that today.

[Philsmania]

Allentown, you mention Brett Myers. The first white guy to get in trouble under this new order of business will be an interesting test case. Will he be punished to the same extent that the Latino guys are? I often speak of the racism of Philadelphia fandom and I believe the Myers and Herrera cases are exhibit a & b of that. Many of the same people who clamor for Herrera to never play for the Phillies again welcomed Myers back with open arns.

[phillychuck]

Many of the same people who clamor for Herrera to never play for the Phillies again welcomed Myers back with open arns.

Myers was 20 years ago, and I'm pretty skeptical that anyone knows that "the same people" welcomed Myers back with open arms.

I honestly don't think there is much of a racial element to the Herrera reaction--the reaction is so negative because he was playing very badly (after being very good, which disappoints the fans), because he was perceived as not always trying hard, and because it's 2019, not 1999.

I know a lot of fans, and I can't think of even one who welcomed Myers back with open arms and is critical of Herrera...honestly, I can't think of any of them who welcomed Myers back with open arms, period--it was mostly a grudging acceptance of the team's decision.

[el-pietro]

I honestly don't think there is much of a racial element to the Herrera reaction--the reaction is so negative because he was playing very badly (after being very good, which disappoints the fans), because he was perceived as not always trying hard, and because it's 2019, not 1999.

What if it was Hoskins? Or Harper? Or Nola? or JT. I believe part of the reaction to Herrera was because he wasn't playing well, but its hard to say for certain that he didnt get a shorter rope because of his race. Segura gets called out for not running out pop ups all the time but when Rhys or Bryce do it there is barely a peep.

[zambonir]

For sure, things are changing fast. Bobby Cox would probably have to resign today. Myers certainly would have been suspended and maybe even traded.

Instead he got a three-year contract extension, and promptly fell apart (in '07 he wound up in the bullpen and assaulted a journalist in the clubhouse, in '08 he got sent to AAA, in '09 he got hurt and then, while rehabbing, lied about falling out of his truck).

Addison Russell seems to be on a similar arc.

When you combine Herrera's performance over the past two seasons with his arrest, then add in the negative PR of letting him take the field in Clearwater, I think Odubel has to go. A mutally agreed-upon buyout shouldn't be difficult, but if it is, and assuming they find there's no trade market whatsoever, what would actually be the downside for the Phillies if they just released him, maybe even before the Rule V? Herrera still gets paid, and if he were to file a grievance it would probably not be resolved quickly (and if they went to court and got an injunction then the Phillies are no longer the bad guys, and they could still option him to AAA to boot).

If Herrera's defense hadn't slipped so much and his conditioning hadn't been questioned this would be a tougher call - a good 4th OF who can play CF, is still young and used to routinely show the ability to hit .300 ought to be an asset.

[andyb]

If Herrera's defense hadn't slipped so much and his conditioning hadn't been questioned this would be a tougher call - a good 4th OF who can play CF, is still young and used to routinely show the ability to hit .300 ought to be an asset.

Herrera could easily have been on a path to be a useful 4th OF like Gerardo Parra for the Nats if his defense had not slipped. The ideal 4th OF is someone that can be at least average in CF and enough offense to be a dangerous pinch hitter or platoon player. That type of player survives for a decade if they are a good teammate. That just seems unlikely to happen with Herrera at this point though stranger things have happened I guess. Players do get second chances and go onto decent post-scandal careers. Some of the PED players like Ryan Braun and Melky Cabrera did that.

[bkeich]

Herrera could easily have been on a path to be a useful 4th OF like Gerardo Parra for the Nats if his defense had not slipped. The ideal 4th OF is someone that can be at least average in CF and enough offense to be a dangerous pinch hitter or platoon player. That type of player survives for a decade if they are a good teammate. That just seems unlikely to happen with Herrera at this point

I think Herrera could even be better than that. He is (or was) probably a serviceable 2B at some point, he could have AT WORST been a very good supersub. Everyone forgets, he was our best player for 2 years, he really can hit.

He needs to get his act together quickly. Get in good shape and take some anger management type classes, he is always going to be a weird dude, cant help that, but I am willing to bet his teammates like him just because of things that have happened in the team the last few years. He seemd like a weirdo that was well liked, just weird. There were guys that tried to help / shield him from "normal" and keep him from doing foolish things. They wouldnt have done that if they didnt actually like the guy.

Shame. His clock to continue his career is ticking down very fast, he will get another chance or two just because of talent but if he doesnt get himself in better shape he will be lost.

[zambonir]

If they hadn't given him that contract and he hadn't gotten arrested we'd be having the same conversation about Herrera that we're having about Franco. Herrera was both better and would still be more useful even without a strong bat, but the downward career trajectory is pretty pronounced. It's been three seasons since he was anything special at the plate; in 2017 he had a 103 OPS+ (so just a tick above average) and a 2.2 WAR with the latter relying in part on his defensive value.

It's baffling that he fell apart so dramatically in 2018 after the hot start, and defensively to boot, but he's probably never again going to be the player he was when he was 24 years old, in the field or at the plate. And while it would be nice to think this incident might be a wake-up call, learning experience, opportunity for redemption, second chance, etc., and so forth, it also puts a much darker spin on his perceived lack of focus/discipline, which I think was also true of Myers (who, IMO, likely had a drinking problem if nothing else).

So I think at the end of the day if I was running the team and there were no other considerations (i.e. the guaranteed contract, the MLB policy) I'd just cut him loose. But, our GM isn't that different from Houston's GM, and it's still a business - ultimately they will calculate how to get the best return on Odubel Herrera and the money they owe him, weighed against the other stuff.

[julio]

The Phils have activated Herrera from the Suspended List:

Matt Breen on Twitter

[tom81]

Domestic violence is a serious problem, not just for MLB, and certainly not restricted to LA players.

MLB Investigating Sam Dyson Under Domestic Violence Policy

[julio]