News of Phormer Phillies, 2022

[andyb]

Recall that Washington tried him as both a starter and a reliever in their minor league system with less than satisfactory results

That is patently incorrect. Pivetta was a raw arm in the Nationals system. JC draft pick who was having a breakout year at age 22 where he got to AA right before he was traded. He had only a handful of starts before he was traded that were mediocre at Harrisburg but he was having a very good year in high A. He was a breakout pitcher for them with better than expected results. That is why the Phillies wanted him. He was a raw arm from Canada having a breakout year. There was nothing less than satisfactory in his results.

Sure the Phillies gave Pivetta every chance and had to deal him. But it is also equally true that the Phillies did not get Pivetta to realize his potential. He was either a mistake or a failure by the Phillies. It was not bad luck that he did not develop.

[zambonir]

It's the team names in that story that really rankle. Yankees. Red Sox. Dodgers. The Rays are the Rays, but those other teams are the Phillies' payroll peers, and they have figured out how to spend and be on the cutting edge at the same time, whereas the Rays do it out of necessity. And when they Phillies do try to tap the Andrew Friedman pipeline with Kapler it still doesn't work. We'll see if the new Assistant GM (as well as Fuld) works out better. But still kind of funny our President is the guy Boston fired, and now they are run by a guy (Chaim Bloom) we could have had.

At least Barber seems like a decent hire, from the Yankees' braintrust. The managers, we'll see.

[flyers19rw]

He hardly had a breakout year before Washington dealt him. He had a whip in the 1.3 area and it was rising. They had decided to move him out of the rotation and into the BP before he was dealt to the Phillies/Reading. The Phillies decided to put him back into the rotation. No one questioned his arm but it never matched expectations.

[Philsmania]

Sometimes guys just take a long time to figure things out. You see it with position players with guys like Jose Bautista, Marlon Byrd and Brandon Moss, to name a few. It sucks to be the last team to have him before he gets good but, at the same time, you can't expect a team to be patient forever. Sometimes it's just a matter of a guy having the right rapport with the right coach for the first time.

[zambonir]

We hardly need to argue the details of any one player - the post-Arbuckle Phillies demonstrably aren't good at this stuff. Not drafting and developing in general, not finding hidden gems in trades, not finding the upside in guys they do bring in. The issue is not that the Phillies should have kept or done a better job developing Nick Pivetta or Austin Davis or Cole Irvin per se (though the latter does look like malpractice as bad 40-man management) it's that they should be finding the equivalent of those players in other organizations. And then they turn out to be bad at signing or trading for provent major league free agent pitchers too.

[andyb]

He hardly had a breakout year before Washington dealt him. He had a whip in the 1.3 area and it was rising. They had decided to move him out of the rotation and into the BP before he was dealt to the Phillies/Reading. The Phillies decided to put him back into the rotation. No one questioned his arm but it never matched expectations.

That is just not true. At Potomac in 2015 he had 86 innings with a 1.147 whip and a 2.29 ERA. That was in high A and was much better than 2014 in low A where he was durable but less effective (4.22 ERA). When a young pitcher advances a level and was much better is kind of the definition of a breakout year.

And that season all but one appearance was as a starter. Same as the season before. Same as it was with the Phillies. There was never a decision to move him into the bullpen until 2019 when he was in Philly or near there. You are just wrong in your narrative. He also never had huge expectations. He kind of developed on the path that a raw arm from Canada would take. You are taking stories from 2019-2021 and placing them on top of his career in 2015 when he was traded.

The Phillies wanted him in the trade because he was a big arm that was having a good year that had additional upside. At no point were the Nats trying to deal him as a failed and underperforming prospect.

[allentown]

That trade was disastrrous for Phillies. Workman and Hembree both stank, performing FAR worse than they had for Boston. Interestingly, Pivetta is SSS did well for Boston, right from the start. Seabold pitching well for Boston in AAA this season.

It makes one wonder whether some Phillies pitchers were harmed by the pitches and pitching sequence our analytical guys and pitching coaches wanted them to use.

[zambonir]

The trade was fine in that Pivetta had to go. The problem is they included Seabold to save $, not as part of the talents swap. The refusal to spend/exceed the tax looks extra stupid now that they've done it (though by now they'd be desperate to get under again).

I think it's fair to say Chris Young broke Pivetta and Bryan Price couldn't fix him. Pivetta certainly showed some immaturity along the way but the results of the pitching program in both of those seasons is indefensible. Cotham seems fine, obviously has had no magic. I think in terms of both analytics and instruction (and major league management) nobody has ever gotten the same message for more than one season.

[Philsmania]

The trade was fine in that Pivetta had to go. The problem is they included Seabold to save $, not as part of the talents swap. The refusal to spend/exceed the tax looks extra stupid now that they've done it (though by now they'd be desperate to get under again).

I think it's fair to say Chris Young broke Pivetta and Bryan Price couldn't fix him. Pivetta certainly showed some immaturity along the way but the results of the pitching program in both of those seasons is indefensible. Cotham seems fine, obviously has had no magic. I think in terms of both analytics and instruction (and major league management) nobody has ever gotten the same message for more than one season.

Let 's just hope things simply settle down with Cotham at the pitching coach position. Up through his first year here, we had five pitching coaches in five years (McClure in 2017, Kranitz in 2018, Young in 2019, Price in 2020 then Cotham in 2021). Young, in particular, was a disaster, an outside-the-box hire (from front office to ML coaching staff--not too dissimilar to Kapler's career trajectory) who clearly didn't work out. But, unlike Francona, Kranitz and Kapler, Young has yet to be one of those guys who got smarter going someplace else. Young arguably broke Velasquez as well and could have broken Eflin too if not for Eflin tuning him out. Velasquez, two organizations later, is possibly showing some signs of life now. Price wasn't the mad scientist that Young was but he clearly didn't have it anymore--either because the game passed him by or he simply didn't connect anymore with today's athletes--and wisely walked away after 2020.

[zambonir]

https://marinersblog.mlblogs.com/mariners-select-c-andrew-knapp-from-triple-a-tacoma-a9c9b60481da

Andrew Knapp to Mariners

[BaseballCat]

I think Seabold made his MLB debut last night. Gave up 7 runs but struck out 7 against a tough Blue Jays team. I too wish we did not include him in that deal. Another reason I do not want to include our pitching prospects in deadline deals this year. Regardless, I still wish him the best.

[LoneStarPhan]

It seems to me that if they include top prospects in any deadline deals, they are saying that they are going all in to make playoffs this season, but the future looks bleak. In effect, they are willing to be mediocre for the next 5 or more years.

[zambonir]

The future already looks bleak!

[allentown]

The future already looks bleak!

It would be nice not to extend the bleakness for the next decade.

[andyb]

Deadline acquisitions really should be largely based on picking up salary with second tier prospects. The only top prospect they should probably think of trading is O'Hoppe because of their catching depth. We really should try to hang on to our top starting prospects because getting one decent starter out of Abel, Painter, and McGarry within the next 3-4 years is probably all we can expect given injuries.

[zambonir]

Well, for sure, I'm not saying "trade them all, they never turn into anything for the Phillies anyway," but it's still a fair thing to feel in our gut. "And "mediocre (or average) for five years" is pretty much the state of the franchise and they (still!) need to push in either one direction or the other IMO. With Harper's injury and the way JT and Castellanos have produced, that direction could well be "rebuild" but it will never happen.

The fear of trading top prospects, at least at the deadline, is a bit of a straw man anyway because it almost never happens (even O'Hoppe is probably best reserved for an off-season deal unless he fetched controllable talent).

[zambonir]

Angels: Bradley broke elbow trying to join brawl

[andyb]

Triple A Round Rock beat Las Vegas 3-0 on Thursday as right-hander Spencer Howard struck out 11 in seven innings in his bid to join #Rangers ' rotation. Also, the game was played in 1 hour, 57 minutes. How great is that?

— Jeff Wilson ( @JeffWilsonTXR ) July 1, 2022

7 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 11 K. He has been good the last half dozen outings. Next chance in the majors will come soon.

[bkox]

Spencer Howard has joined the Rangers in New York as a member of the Taxi Squad. He would like start Tuesday at Baltimore.

— Evan Grant ( @Evan_P_Grant ) July 2, 2022

[andyb]

Kyle Garlick thriving in a right-handed platoon role with the Twins.

Sunday Notes: Kyle Garlick Didn’t Need The Backup Plan