Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

[zambonir]

There was obviously not a relationship between Rolen and the Phillies for a long time while Giles, Monty and even the likes of Wade and Dallas Green were still part of the front office. Thome (who retired the same year and had the rules changed for him), Gillick and Halladay (under normal circumstances) should not have preceded him. I will cut the current regime a break and assume that, in addition to making it right with Abreu, they were deliberately slow-playing it the last couple of years knowing this was likely coming, while also deciding to check off a few more '80s guys (unnecessarily IMO, but it's really a marketing device not a historic record, and they'd made those ill-fated anniversary plans).

[Philsmania]

As I've said before, Rolen most-definitely belongs on the WOF. I would not, however, retire his number. His time as a Phillie just doesn't have the requisite "specialness". He never played on any notable Phillies teams (unlike Alexander, Roberts, Ashburn, Schmidt, Carton and Bunning and Allen who were a part of a special team for 24 weeks), he was here only six-plus years (unlike Klein who played here many years) and, let's be honest, he did express disdain for Philadelphia and it's phanbase. I don't agree that he was completely the victim that others here claim he was. Reconciliation is a two-way street. The Phillies and Philadelphia had a messy divorce from Allen. But, both sides were willing to bury the hatchet after just a few years. I've never gotten the sense that Rolen has been similarly interested.

Allen also has the distinction of being the Phillies' first African-American star player and that is significant. In some ways, however, Allen and Rolen were both similar as both were quite talented but were also were quirky guys who drummed to their own beat, clashed with authority figures at times (Rolen also had issues with LaRussa in St. Louis) and also were seen by some teammates as clubhouse killjoys. Allen was probably a little more over the top but that is an interesting parallel.

Halladay was a huge stretch and was probably a hasty decision made as a result of his tragic passing.

[Philsmania]

There was obviously not a relationship between Rolen and the Phillies for a long time while Giles, Monty and even the likes of Wade and Dallas Green were still part of the front office. Thome (who retired the same year and had the rules changed for him), Gillick and Halladay (under normal circumstances) should not have preceded him. I will cut the current regime a break and assume that, in addition to making it right with Abreu, they were deliberately slow-playing it the last couple of years knowing this was likely coming, while also deciding to check off a few more '80s guys (unnecessarily IMO, but it's really a marketing device not a historic record, and they'd made those ill-fated anniversary plans).

Rolen did issue a nice Tweet when Monty passed away.

[BostonRoss]

Rolen certainly deserves to be on the Wall of Fame more than several who are already there.

I think it's important to remember how young he was when he shot his way out of town. I suspect he's grown up a lot in the last 20 years. And of course, he wasn't completely in the wrong.

[xogfog]

Jimmy Rollins vote total increased from 9.7 to 12.9, I'm really curious how Utley will do next year, for the advanced stats voters, Utley will look good to them.

[andyb]

I think Utley gets in the 40%-50% range. The advanced stats writers will vote for him and the ones that want counting stats and MVPs will pass. That is the range he eventually gets in though. I think Jimmy is too far away.

[Philsmania]

Rolen certainly deserves to be on the Wall of Fame more than several who are already there.

I think it's important to remember how young he was when he shot his way out of town. I suspect he's grown up a lot in the last 20 years. And of course, he wasn't completely in the wrong.

In many ways, Rolen came along at the worst possible time, that being when the Phillies had hit rock bottom and were just beginning the rebuild. Truth be told, they did contend on schedule in 2001. There was just too much water under the bridge at that point and the Vet was bothering his back while CBP was bogged down in City Hall politics. At times I wondered if a modern-thinking front office would have traded Rolen away after 1997 for a king's ransom of prospects who would help in two-to-three years but, then again, Altuve came along at pretty much the same point in the Astros' rebuild (perhaps a year later in year two of the rebuild where Rolen arrived at the very beginning) and they stuck with him through the tank years.

[nycphils]

Hard to believe that I was on this Board when Rolen pushed his way out of town, and 20+ years later I’m still on this board. Where does the time go…

[zambonir]

Entertaining piece on a number of levels by Phil Sheridan (free to read, it seems)

https://www.patreon.com/posts/how-i-missed-of-77738348?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=postshare_creator&utm_content=join_link&fbclid=IwAR1uDMwledaK74T75HYeDd1IB6bE2yUo7ooqzC9dT-oirPgzATcQreWfSKI

[Dirk41]

The Lindros and Rolen comparison is spot on. If only the Phillies reconnected with Scott like the Flyers did with Eric.

[BaseballCat]

There is still an anti-Rolen vibe on social media. I don’t get it. The dude could flat out play. I loved watching him play. The only real interaction I had with him was a few times outside the Reading ballpark. Not a talkative guy, but nice and respectful. People need to let their hostility towards this guy go. If they ever get him back to honor him in Philly, I will be really incensed if one person boos, but it better not be many. Just my two cents

[Philsmania]

The Lindros and Rolen comparison is spot on. If only the Phillies reconnected with Scott like the Flyers did with Eric.

Reconciliation needs to be a two-way street. Do we know for sure that Rolen was interested in burying the hatchet.

[julio]

There is still an anti-Rolen vibe on social media. I don’t get it.

You don't get the idea that people on social media often lose their inhibitions, hide behind relative anonymity, and behave badly? That some subset of social media users are nasty pieces of work? That some subset of Phillies "fans" are selfish and entitled, and often resentful of players (they're paid too much, they're spoiled, they should be grateful to be paid for playing a kid's game and just shut up, etc., etc., etc.)?

Social media can be useful avenues for people to connect and share. All too often, what is shared is not very nice. All too often, social media are the public sewers of the internet... and all too often, there's no treatment plant (i.e., moderation), so what you get when you open the spigot is raw sewage.

[BaseballCat]

Yes SM can be unfiltered garbage, but if that is all you see, you might be hesitant to reinvest with the city. Yes it needs to be two way and to this he has said only positive things after getting into the HOF. There is Rolen, current Phils ownership and the fans - they all need to be reasonable, unfortunately the unfiltered rats of some fans has not.

[zambonir]

What I actually found more interesting is not the people who still held a vocal grudge against Rolen but a handful of phans who just didn't think he was that strong a candidate due to some combination of the subsconscious grudge and not knowing or appreciating what made him a special player. Had he stayed in Philly (or made some kind of reconciled return late in his career) of course, we'd have been mad that he wasn't in yet - as we will soon be for Chase.

[Philsmania]

I do sense a changing of the guard in the BBWOA with older writers fading out and newer, more stat-oriented younger writers coming in. I think that helped Rolen and will help Utley but will hurt Rollins (who I get the sense has a lot of support from his potential peers in the HOF when it comes time for him to be reviewed by whatever permutation of the Veterans' Committee considers him and, as a result, will have his best chance for enshrinement there). I can see Abreu coming close in the BBWOA vote but going nowhere with the VC. I get the sense that older school writers may not have been receptive to Rolen since he kind of fell short in the subjective part.

Whether that is a good thing or not or what should truly constitute worthiness is a debate can of worms I care not to open. Essentially the question is should membership be quanitified with data alone or is the something more subjective to fame?

It will be interesting to see how the VC treats Schilling who fairly or not had a reputation among his peers of being something of a jerk. Even though I suspect a lot of them agree with his politics, it wis telling that few if any ex-MLers speak up in his defense every time his mouth gets him in trouble.

[andyb]

There has always been some tension between the long and short career candidates. Rolen would not have been a Hall of Famer if his career was a short as Utley's for instance. I think Utley gets in now (and in only 2-4 years) where a few years ago I really thought his short career would be the tipping point against him. The knock against the long career candidates is always that they rarely were the best in their leagues. That was the main argument against Rolen (apart from the really old school guys who have no clue about how to value defense).

If we ever let the steroid guys in should Palmeiro get in? I would think yes even if you discount the stats a tiny bit. He has more of a case than Sosa to me (71 vs 58 WAR) even though Sosa's peak was better and more spectacular to the old school writers.

[Philsmania]

There has always been some tension between the long and short career candidates. Rolen would not have been a Hall of Famer if his career was a short as Utley's for instance. I think Utley gets in now (and in only 2-4 years) where a few years ago I really thought his short career would be the tipping point against him. The knock against the long career candidates is always that they rarely were the best in their leagues. That was the main argument against Rolen (apart from the really old school guys who have no clue about how to value defense).

If we ever let the steroid guys in should Palmeiro get in? I would think yes even if you discount the stats a tiny bit. He has more of a case than Sosa to me (71 vs 58 WAR) even though Sosa's peak was better and more spectacular to the old school writers.

Or, the tension between "counting" stats versus peak stats. Rollins and Utley have opposing problems. Rollins is stronger in the "counting" department but weaker in the sabermetric department, Utley is stronger in the sabermetric department but weaker in the counting department. I tend to agree that Utley gets in on about the same schedule as Rolen while Rollins waits until the VC to really get his chance.

Having said that, there is a growing recognition that Rollins was the best NL shortstop of his time and the game's best shortstop not named Jeter of his time (especially after ARod was moved to 3B).

[andyb]

Counting vs peak was what I was referring to. Though also I think there is the recognition of WAR these days and 70 WAR pretty much gets you in and 60 WAR merits serious consideration, especially if there was a great peak (Utley but only 64.5 WAR). Abreu had the counting stats but topped out at 60.2 WAR. Andrew Jones at 62.7 is kind of in the middle and might have done something better than anyone else with his CF defense.

Rollins at 47.6 WAR really falls below the line of serious consideration and if he was the best SS of his time not named Jeter it was also because A Rod was ineligible and Nomar and Troy Tulowitzki got hurt. I love Jimmy as a player but am comfortable in saying he just misses Hall of Fame level.

[BostonRoss]

Rolen would not have been a Hall of Famer if his career was a short as Utley's for instance.

Rolen played 101 more games and one more season than Utley. Not really much of a difference.