Hall of Fame Discussion 2022 and Beyond

Philsmania 2022-01-31 18:37:37 UTC #121

Just wondering, when did Glanville end up back with ESPN? I thought he was in that round of mass-layoffs a few years ago. Before they went with the now-departed Frandsen, they gave him a look in the booth with Franzke.

bkox 2022-01-31 18:49:58 UTC #122

According to wikipedia:
ESPN re-hired Glanville on March 28, 2019

zambonir 2022-03-06 07:00:40 UTC #123

Semi-related. Howard, Utley, Rollins and Hamels mentioned at the end.

andyb 2022-03-06 13:54:33 UTC #124

Paul O'Neill having a number retired certainly makes a case for all of those Phillies eventually getting theirs retired. Especially considering the Yankees do not have a whole lot of numbers available. Guessing this informal practice of not giving a number out does allow the retired player to let a newer player have that number if they are still alive.

zambonir 2022-03-06 15:50:17 UTC #125

I feel like the Phillies have a few more numbers that are still in boxes, though perhaps not at spring training. Hans Crouse wears Chooch's number. Cliff Lee's isn't being used. Bohm has Werth's. Not that I think any of those guys will have their numbers retired. Wall of Fame yes.

bkox 2022-03-06 16:51:05 UTC #126

The yankees are going to soon have to start issuing triple digit numbers

allentown 2022-03-06 17:37:03 UTC #127

Chooch's number should be retired.

schillingfan 2022-03-06 18:28:10 UTC #128

Most valuable foreign signing ever?

Philsmania 2022-03-06 19:05:49 UTC #129

And, Realmuto wears Bowa's & Dutch's #10.

zambonir 2022-03-06 19:14:17 UTC #130

You can certainly make the case for Chooch as the fifth member of that group to get his number retired, especially with Halladay already on the wall, but as things currently stand none of them are in line for it, even if we do expect the HoF thing to change finally.

And it's a slippery slope. I recognize the tangible and intangible reasons to revere Chooch but personally still put him on the same tier as Lidge, Victorino and Werth (and Burrell for that matter) when it comes to that championship core (ironically Chooch also wasn't even that good in 2008, he peaked in the years after and in fact had his best WAR in the first non-playoff season).

You can make the case that he's no less deserving than Howard, which comes back to the intangibles and symbolic achievements. By numbers (most notably WAR) alone neither would have a shot.

allentown 2022-03-06 19:17:57 UTC #131

I think so. Also, of the three guys mentioned above, he is the only one who was signed and developed by the Phillies. He also was a key part of the 2008 championship.

bkox 2022-03-06 19:34:31 UTC #132

If you go by BBref WAR... Ruiz is at 22.5 and Ryan Howard is at 14.7

Which really makes me question WAR even more than I did.

andyb 2022-03-06 19:44:02 UTC #133

It is just so hard to value defense. Larry Bowa is at 22.8 for his career. He was not as good as Rollins, but that is a decent number. His 1978 year is interesting. 5.8 WAR total. 3.9 OWAR and 2.9 DWAR. But how good was he really on offense? It was a pitcher's era, but he had a .689 OPS with a .319 OBP. Stole 27 bases with a good success rate, but is this really a player whose offense is worth almost 4 wins?

Chooch was a solid player though I would definitely put him behind Bowa even though the WAR was close.

zambonir 2022-03-06 19:45:04 UTC #134

Not hard to understand, Howard had negative defensive value (both positionally and in terms of his play there), Ruiz was solid to good from both sides, when he was at his best. Both of them were below-average offensive players (sub 100 OPS+) four of their last five seasons. Not surprising for Chooch, an average player (literally 100) for his career, but Howard with no bat may as well not have existed.

andyb 2022-03-06 19:49:38 UTC #135

Close. Carlos Carrasco is at 20.4 WAR even with a -0.8 last year. Juan Samuel totals 17.0 bWAR (though his offense is +28.5 and the defense is -8.9 begging the question of whether he should have been moved to CF earlier. George Bell at 20.0 WAR. He got old quickly with his last positive WAR year being his age 31 season.

Maybe Johan Rojas will change this history.....

schillingfan 2022-03-06 21:34:36 UTC #136

Thank you for understanding my post. Is was partly meant in irony, as I am a Chooch fan.

allentown 2022-03-06 21:47:46 UTC #137

Most of their careers weren't in Philly. Good signs, who had their value cashed in through trades, but you don't get your number retired for that. George Bell was a great international signing, but we lost him for pocket change.

zambonir 2022-03-06 22:58:31 UTC #138

Being a Phillies player from Day 1 ought to count for something, but not sure it really can in this day and age. Counting GMs and managers, only one of the last the eight Wall of Fame inductees began their careers in Philadelphia. That will presumably change back over the next few years (possibly including Rolen - who presents the opposite trajectory - as well as Howard and Rollins most immediately). And then if we're lucky it will reverse again.

Does Reading or Lehigh Valley have a Wall of Fame or retire numbers?

bkox 2022-03-06 23:37:42 UTC #139

Reading does. Chooch was inducted last year.

I cant seem to locate a full list of members though:

andyb 2023-01-24 19:50:15 UTC #140

Rather than create a new thread I figured we can repurpose the old one. Announcement 6 pm tonight.

Here is the ballot for 2023:

Stark's column:

And the preliminary tally:
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!47464&ithint=file%2cxlsx&authkey=!AOiVOHV1SzKLAR0

Rolen and Helton the only ones over 75% so far. Beltran not close (Houston scandal hurting him). Wagner, Jones, and Sheffield the next closest. I would want both Beltran and Jones before Helton. Possible nobody gets in because the voters that put few players on their ballots are the ones that tend to not respond to survey requests.

And for 2024 this writer is semi-warm on Chase's chances: