GDT 9/18/17 Los Angeles Dodgers (C Kershaw) @ Philadelphia Phillies (N Pivetta)

[California_Dreamin]

allentown is correct in my view, the Phils always seem to want that security blanket of a veteran starter or two but fear going the Full Monty and actually bringing in a guy who might, gulp, actually be around when the team gets good again [not that far away, as hard as that is to believe!.]

Instead they sign a guy, announce to the world they hope the guy is good enough to deal in July for a prospect that won't count on the 40 man roster..and the cycle continues. It has been a decent plan for the past couple of seasons, though usually with disastrous results [Morton and Buchholz pitched less games combined than Mac Scarce saved for the '73 Phillies, and that wasn't many].

Time to add a very good youngish hurler and let the young guys on the roster compete and may the best 3-4 win. This team is developing one of the bonds that teams only get to see once...when they are all young, struggling, getting their brains beat out, then having some success and finally competing for playoff berths.

Some of us have seen it three times in our lifetimes [1961-64, 1972-74 and 2002-2008] but most have only seen it once. This group has the potential to do it again and clearly, they not only understand this but are enjoying it. This is why I absolutely do not want Kingery moved, Pivetta sent down, Thompson messed with and older mercenaries brought in at the expense of the youngsters. Let me lose with Pivetta over Buchholz any day, at least I have hope that someday he will win...as a Phillie.

[California_Dreamin]

bkox...lol, I doubt many know who Gus Zernial even is, but yes that would be his best card. Those real old cards were wonderful.

[bkox]

bkox...lol, I doubt many know who Gus Zernial even is, but yes that would be his best card. Those real old cards were wonderful.

As someone who loves the history of baseball and wish people paid more attention to it beyond the big names, I am a bit embarrassed that the name didnt immediately ring a bell. I thank ya for bringing up his name which made me look him up.

[Austinfan]

I don't think it had anything to do with "love of veterans" this year.
Klentak saw a team with lots of kids he didn't want to rush, veterans were a way of buying time for their development.

A lot of top pitchers have had ML stints, struggled, gone back to the minors, worked on their stuff, then came back up and dominated.
Halladay 18 starts with a 3.98 ERA at age 22
Next season, 13 starts with a 10.64 ERA, was sent down, 11 starts with a 5.50 ERA in AAA
Started the next season in the minors, after 7 starts was promoted and the rest was history

Cliff Lee was up and down between the majors and AAA ball until he was 28 years old

I see in Pivetta a guy with great stuff who needs some work to succeed at the ML level, he must develop his changeup and really would be helped if he learned to throw a two seamer.
Velasquez has all those pitches, his problem is consistency and durability, but he might as well pitch in the majors, he should have stayed in AAA ball the last couple years but that train is gone.
Guys like LIvely and Leiter have the repertoire, they have to learn how to use it at the ML level.
Thompson just needs to fix his mechanics, that probably should be done in AAA.

[EDmuch]

I remember a better Gus Zernial card. the on where he is swinging a bat. It almost looks like it came directly from an in-game photo, but I am not sure if they had that kind of technology back in the 50's.

but if we are going Philadelphia A's, give me the Spook Jacobs card where he is sliding into home. Hmm, that one had to be an in-game photo. so I guess they did have that back in the 50's. Nowaday's "Spook" would probably be considered a politically incorrect nick name.

[flyers19rw]

I want guys like Pivetta, Lively, Eflin and Thompson to use those pitches in Philadelphia, not LHV.

I have to agree with CD here. Each of these pitchers, has had a year or more and the stats to show that they belong in the majors to develop their game. I don't see what more can be gained from facing AAA players. What really bothers me is that when these youngsters come to Philly, and Velasquez can be added to the list, their trajectory of development stalls. When that happens, all too often, someone starts adjusting the mechanics with less than good results.
There is something amiss with the coaching of pitchers here in town. Not one pitcher has improved from work done here. Nola broke down and went to Florida where he worked with Ray Burris to get his game back together.

[zambonir]

Seems like some contradictory thoughts here. Not that everyone has the same opinion, but we've discussed it enough to have a pretty good idea what most people think, and I don't recall anyone actually previously being in favor of an opening day rotation of Nola, Eickhoff, Pivetta, Velasquez and Livey (with Thompson and Eflin in the wings and Leiter in the bullpen). I think the Phillies will have two pitchers who are potentially better than anyone on that list besides Nola, it's just a question of who, and how they get 'em. Some want Darvish, some want a lesser free agent, some expect a trade and another stopgrap type free agent. Either way, it means some of the kids are either going back to AAA or onto another team.

Cant this team go .500 next season w/o adding two external pitchers? I don't think so. Is developing players still more important than going .500? Yes, which will also inform the decisions regarding several positon players.

[allentown]

I agree. This team has a chance to go .500 next year, but needs to add 2 pitchers -- either two guys to be the Phillies #2, and #3 in the rotation, with the kids, including Eickhoff battling it out for the last two spots plus bullpen jobs or a guy to pitch #1 or #2 in our rotation plus a guy to be the bullpen closer, with the kids competing for 3 of the spots in the rotation. Not to be a total pessimist, but it's pretty much inevitable that two other kids will make their way into the rotation by the end of the year due to injury or innings limits. Allentown should go with a 6-man rotation to limit IP so that a kid or two can pitch in Philly during the second half of the season. Reading also should start with a 6-man rotation, since they will backfill Allentow n.

[Austinfan]

Nola, and Eickhoff if healthy, are locks.
They're almost certain to add one veteran pitcher, whether a big money FA contract, a trade or a one year patch.
So that leaves two spots in April.
Leiter will probably be in the bullpen as a long reliever/6th starter, given his age and advanced skill set, he had little to learn in AAA.
We'll see if they sign Alvarez for next year, but if they do, it'll be because they think his shoulder is 100% - and that will probably depend on whether he continues to regain velocity

So that leaves two spots for Lively, Pivetta, Velasquez, Thompson and Eflin.
I think Lively and Velasquez have the inside track.
So your Lehigh rotation would be Eflin, Pivetta, Thompson, Anderson, Eshelman, Tavares
Reading rotation would be Kilome, El Garcia, Irvin, Waguespack, Viza/E Garcia/M Sanchez/Arauz
Clearwater rotation would be Romero, Sixto, Suarez, Dominquez, Mills, Medina, Falter, Fanti
Which is why I doubt they bring in more than one veteran, unless on a one year deal as a July trade candidate.
Even if 2/3s of these candidates flame out, they're going to have a young, deep group in Philly and Lehigh by 2020.

[zambonir]

They certainly have depth. But even the deepest water tends to evaporate when you're talking about pitching. It's not melodramatic to suggest that the 2019 rotation might only include two - and no more than three - names on the list above, including incumbents besides Nola. Developing the kids is nice but when does that ever work out exactly like you think. You either get guys because you don't have anyone or you ship out guys like Carrasco and Happ and Worley to get better faster.

Of course at least one name on the list above will probably be traded too.

Expect the return of Velasquez-to-closer talk as well.

[Austinfan]

In the past, they never had close to this depth, I think the best was the one year when they have 5 young pitchers at Lakewood or Clearwater.
The difference now is they have 5+ starters at four different levels.

Young pitcher burn out at a high rate, which is why I think Klentak focuses on picking up as many arms as he can, even the ones that are only #4/#5s have a lot of value. Last decade we had a good hitting team that was hobbled by 60 or so starts a year by replacement level or worse starting pitchers. So consistent "mediocrity" can win you 2-3 more games a year.

[bkox]

I remember a better Gus Zernial card. the on where he is swinging a bat. It almost looks like it came directly from an in-game photo, but I am not sure if they had that kind of technology back in the 50's.

but if we are going Philadelphia A's, give me the Spook Jacobs card where he is sliding into home. Hmm, that one had to be an in-game photo. so I guess they did have that back in the 50's. Nowaday's "Spook" would probably be considered a politically incorrect nick name.

This one?

and is this the one you mean?

[LoneStarPhan]

The Zernial card with the six baseballs on the bat was the 1952 Topps. I remember opening packs of cards and getting 5 or 6 Zernial cards that spring. I didn't have any with the pink shirt. I also had the other Zernial card but I think that was an earlier on that was in the smaller size that was the norm before the 52 Topps cards changed the game.

[bkox]

I also had the other Zernial card but I think that was an earlier on that was in the smaller size that was the norm before the 52 Topps cards changed the game.

The other Zernial card is a 52 Bowman.

[LoneStarPhan]

I also had the other Zernial card but I think that was an earlier on that was in the smaller size that was the norm before the 52 Topps cards changed the game.

The other Zernial card is a 52 Bowman.

Did Bowman still have the smaller card in 1952? I'm thinking they did. I also remember the TV set cards they had. That was probably 53. I sure wish I had more of those old cards. I know most of them disappeared years ago. I was also hard on the cards. I actually played with the cards.

[California_Dreamin]

Who knew that Jake Thompson losing a Gus Zernial baseball card would lead to this? Love those old baseball cards!

[bkox]

Who knew that Jake Thompson losing a Gus Zernial baseball card would lead to this? Love those old baseball cards!

Did Bowman still have the smaller card in 1952? I'm thinking they did. I also remember the TV set cards they had. That was probably 53. I sure wish I had more of those old cards. I know most of them disappeared years ago. I was also hard on the cards. I actually played with the cards

You all might enjoy checking out the http://www.tradingcarddb.com/ They have over 2 million images of cards. (its where I steal the images from). Im a big card collector. Have over 110K in my collection. That doesnt incllude any duplicates. Unfortunately I have nothing older then 1974.

Here is the direct link to the 1952 topps set:
http://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewSet.cfm/sid/26/1952-Topps

[LoneStarPhan]

Great site bkox. I've been lost looking at old cards I collected as a kid. The first that I had were the 1951 cards.

I also collected college football cards that had a quiz of college mascots with scratch off answer. They were 1951 Topps.

http://www.tradingcarddb.com/ViewCard.cfm/sid/3192/cid/804482/1951-Topps-2-Bill-Wade
.