COVID and sports 2021-2022

[Phanatical]

andyb
3h
Phanatical:
The big question is…why are the vaccines being pushed so strongly for groups that face nearly zero risk from the disease?
Because society achieves herd immunity much quicker if we slow the spread of the virus.

But the vaccines do not work as advertised. The vaccinated readily get the disease and spread the disease. You are not ever going to reach herd immunity (If that is even possible) that way.

[Phanatical]

^ Ugh, I never tried to quote anyone on this new system before. Obviously I do not know how to do it correctly.

[andyb]

But the vaccines do not work as advertised. The vaccinated readily get the disease and spread the disease. You are not ever going to reach herd immunity (If that is even possible) that way.

Well your sentence is actually untrue there. The vaccines are not advertised to be perfect. Never were. Even when there was a 94%-95% efficacy rate on the early COVID infections. 95% is not 100%. So vaccinated people have always been able to get and spread the disease.

Now the virus has mutated to Delta and Omicron and other future variants. Do the vaccines work as well as the initial tests? No. But they still work better than nothing. Even if that Canadian study (which is being revised) is true, 37% is still better than 0% or negative effects. The vaccines will need to be revised to account for the variants.

Part of herd immunity is few people dying (as opposed to getting COVID). The vaccines still do that effectively. We might achieve herd immunity by rarely spreading severe cases of COVID rather than spreading COVID itself.

Perfect should also never be the enemy of the very good. Making COVID endemic as PC was saying is part of herd immunity. There is just no reason to suggest that we should not strive to get 100% of the population vaccinated. If that ever occurred we would have many fewer deaths and significant time to prepare new vaccines for new variants.

Saying there is no societal good for a 20 year old to get vaccinated is part of the problem we are facing.

Will we ever reach herd immunity to Covid? | Erin Mordecai and Mallory Harris

[Phanatical]

The first rule of medicine is to do no harm. If you want to protect Grandma, don’t hug Grandma. You don’t enroll the entire population in a massive vaccine trial, especially when that has no chance at all of actually protecting Grandma. The vaccinated ARE passing the disease to others.

If we wanted any chance at herd immunity it was to follow the Pandemic Preparedness plans. Let those who are not at risk from the disease get it, so that they can no longer pass it on. Instead, we threw out that playbook and locked everything down. We forced everyone indoors where the disease actually spreads. Rather than encouraging prophylaxis before any vaccines were available, we closed down the parks, as well as shut down all discussion that did not fit the official narrative. The approach could hardly have been dumber.

[andyb]

With what group does the vaccine do harm? There is no group I know of where the negative side effects are greater or even close to the positive effects of disease prevention.

Who cares if vaccinated people are passing the disease to others. That is a dishonest point. They are contracting COVD at a lower rate. They are getting sicker at a lower rate. And they are passing the disease to others at a lower rate. That is what the vaccines are supposed to do.

Also, when did we force people indoors? We are forcing people to wear masks indoors in some situations, but we have always encouraged more outdoor activity and fewer crowds. We closed down gyms before the vaccines because we were still understanding how the virus spread. Now we know and people can use gyms at their own risk. My gym requires masks for the unvaccinated. Seems reasonable to me.

The approach has not been perfect but it has been more good than bad. The anti-vax and anti-mask people are the ones advocating "dumb" things. Close to 3,000 people are dying daily and it is largely the unvaccinated. And COVID is much more prevalent because of the unvaccinated. Again, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the very good.

[zambonir]

I think once an author edits their post, the quoted post edits too.. I know some forum software works that way. Not sure about this one.

Quote me and Ill edit and test

Yeah that occurred to me as well though I got a notification that my post had been edited. Either way I (and any OP affected) can still see original text in the edit history.

[Phanatical]

andyb With what groups does the vaccine do harm?

This is from the FDA’s Pfizer approval letter…

“Additionally, the FDA conducted a rigorous evaluation of the post-authorization safety surveillance data pertaining to myocarditis and pericarditis following administration of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and has determined that the data demonstrate increased risks, particularly within the seven days following the second dose. The observed risk is higher among males under 40 years of age compared to females and older males. The observed risk is highest in males 12 through 17 years of age.”

They went on to say that the benefit of the vaccines outweigh the risks. I have no doubt that is true when one looks at the population in total. The problem is they should have separated the presentation in to males with 0 (zero) comorbidities and those with 1+. COVID is not a risk to healthy young males, and as a result the vaccine is contraindicated for that group.

The history of forced medicine is not a good one. And COVID is nothing like the Measles or any of the other serious childhood illnesses for which present vaccination programs exist. The average age of COVID fatalities is 80+, and 75% of the dead have 4+ comorbidities.

[andyb]

And that FDA site still says that the benefits outweigh the risks. They would not say it if it were not true for those groups with higher risk. They are probably also weighing the benefits of alternative vaccines for those groups as the risk factors are a bit different for each vaccine. I still fail to find evidence of more than a handful of people out of billions actually dying from the vaccine. You are just inflating hearsay on vaccine deaths so it looks good in comparison with COVID deaths (which it does not for ANY groups - there are still kids dying - and kids often have grandparents anyway).

Then you go into the history of forced vaccines. I would submit that most of that history, especially recent history, is really, really good. That is why we have mandated multiple vaccines for children. There are bad elements like Tuskegee but none of that applies here. Your position here is that it is OK if a few old people die so young people can have their supposed freedom. COVID has killed 800,000 plus in this country. Probably would have been 5 million plus without the vaccines. Maybe it is not as bad as measles but that is not the test here. It is still very bad and the vaccines help immensely.

Your whole argument seems to be selective belief in what doctors say about the vaccines. When they say side effects are rare, you inflate those numbers. When they say the benefits outweigh the risks you skip that. When no doctor says vaccine mandates (with medical exemptions) are bad, you then compare it to forced medicine which has nothing to do with this crisis. People are dying because of this misinformation.

[julio]

Maya Angelou is widely quoted as having said, "When somebody tells you what/who they are... believe them.

Admittedly, like anything by government, it sucks.

In Soviet Russia (and apparently, in these United States), ideology outweighs reason.

[Phanatical]

andyb please post the analysis of VAERS that reports only 10 vaccine deaths. I am following this as closely as possible and have seen nothing. Perhaps I missed it.

[andyb]

COVID-19 Vaccination

It is more than 10, but these notes identify 12 and even some of that is not causal. Basically people are really not dying from the myocarditis. The 12 are noted for a form of TTS but even the 3 is noted that the rate is not different from the rate in the general population. The main number of deaths (11,468) after the vaccine are not different from what the general population death rate would be for those demographic groups.

Where is evidence of large scale death that is directly attributed to COVID vaccines with a causal relationship (i.e. a randomly controlled experiment)? Feel free to add links with reputable scientific analysis.

[bkox]

I dont know if this has been covered in this convo.. but if not it seems relevant:

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requires health care providers to report any serious adverse event (including death) that happens after a COVID-19 vaccination – whether or not the provider thinks there is any link. The CDC says, "Health care providers are required to report to VAERS the following adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination…regardless if the reporter thinks the vaccine caused the AE." AE stands for adverse event and includes death.

That means that if a vaccinated person drowns, gets in a car crash or is struck by lightning, their death must be reported to VAERS as an adverse event. Since we've vaccinated over 223 million people in the United States, many deaths will occur coincidentally after vaccination.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/does-vaers-list-deaths-caused-by-covid-19-vaccines

So in other words... even Hank Aaron's death was recorded as an AE since it occurred shortly after the vaccine but was just from natural causes of being elderly.

[schillingfan]

All vaccines have a certain known risk. There is a federal program to pay people when they do suffer from known risk of vaccines. It is paid into by the vaccine makers. If someone gets a vaccine, and alleges they are injured they apply to the program. There are certain vaccine tables that are updated regarding certain vaccines, known, diseases or injuries caused by them and time in which the symptoms of the disease occur. You can also get money if you get something off the table and go the aCourt if they are denied. I actually worked on a couple f vaccination appeals in the federal district court. One I remember is that flue shots cause Guillan-Barr syndrome.

The point I am making s that all these things are studied and associated. Vaccines do cause known injuries, that’s why the government pays you when you suffer one. All vaccines are a case of risk to reward. Our kids are vaccinated before they going to school knowing that some kids will suffer adverse effects, including death. The risk is very small. Like most operations, wher we sign an informed consent, knowing there is an inherent risk of surgery, but the benefits outweighs. In the case of all approved vaccines, the government has axe a decision for the benefit of all society that the risk is worth the reward of spreading a deadly or debilitating disease. Our personal rights cannot outweigh that. It’s part of the price we pay to be in society. Vaccine mandates are prices we pay to participate in public schools or work for certain employers. You can home school or go live off the grid f “your freedom” is so important.

Also the Covid vaccines don’t stop the virus from going up your nose. They don’t create an immune shield tat stops penetration of the virus. They do send an army of soldiers from your immune system to fight the virus and Reece to sread t other cells. So you can catch Covid, but if your immune system reduces the spread, you will have a smaller viral load to spread to other people.

[zambonir]

Saying that vaccinated people can spread the disease just like unvaccinated people is like saying Ronald Torreyes can hit a game-winning home run just like Bryce Harper. Technically true, but doesn't quite capture the full reality.

[Phanatical]

Thx andyb. We are reading the report differently. They have attributed some of the deaths to J&J, but still investigating the others. This report was posted on Jan 18 which is why I had not seen it yet. I look forward to future releases explaining the excessive adverse events in VAERS.

You are not understanding my point about the myocarditis. The FDA should have divided the presentation of the data into 2 (or more) groups, those with zero comorbidities, and those with 1+. Doctors treat individual patients, not groups. I have no doubt that teens with compromised immune systems benefit from vaccination. But healthy teens are at no meaningful risk from the disease. As a result, vaccination is contraindicated.

It also serves to repeat that it makes no sense to require vaccination of those with natural immunity. Natural immunity >> vaccination. Both these policies are counter to long accepted medical practice.

[andyb]

You are not understanding my point about the myocarditis. The FDA should have divided the presentation of the data into 2 (or more) groups, those with zero comorbidities, and those with 1+. Doctors treat individual patients, not groups.

That was simply a FAQ for people who are asking about this. But the way the FDA works is that they would stop recommending the vaccine for a subgroup if the risk level is too high within any subgroup. And it is not. Most of the myocarditis cases are mild and people are not dying in any large numbers if at all. If that subgroup can be steered to a different vaccine they would do that as they are with a few people around the J and J vaccine. They simply would not approve the vaccine for a subgroup if there were any hint of large risks.

I also repeat that healthy teens can get COVID. It is not a large risk to them but it is still a risk (and long COVID seems to be hitting young people too). BUT THEY CAN ALSO PASS COVID TO OTHERS. And if there is little risk to them on taking the vaccine (which is what the CDC and FDA say) then they are helping other people (i.e. the community, old people, etc.) by not spreading the virus. The vaccine is still vital. To lessen community spread and speed herd immunity or the path where COVID becomes endemic like the common cold.

Your last point. There is not evidence that natural immunity is greater than vaccination. Most studies have shown the opposite. The few that have not have been spread by the anti-vax community to no end but the bulk of the science does not say that. Furthermore there is no harm in getting vaccinated if you have had covid. Immunity then would be even greater with little risk (i.e. the same negligible risk for everyone taking the vaccine). Why not have more immunity? That is actually what long accepted medical practice says, not what Drs. Rodgers and Djokavic say.

The following references 4 different studies that show this. The vaccine is additive. Really mild COVID cases also generate weak immunity for a much shorter period than the vaccines protect people.

COVID Natural Immunity: What You Need to Know

[Philsmania]

Covid is never going to go away like the so-called Spanish flu or the first SARS from earlier this century. It's going to become endemic instead of pandemic and something which is not a crisis. We are not there yet. It's debatable how close we are.

I do think it will get to the point where we will get an annual covid shot similar to the way we get an annual flu shot. And, a lot of people who get flu shots won't get covid shots. At this point, it has essentially become a matter of principle and conscience for a lot of people to not get the shot. It's not rational and it doesn't make sense and it's based upon nothing when you get down to it but it's a matter of principle and conscience to them, unfortunatey. Some people close to me feel that way. Getting the shot would be a betrayal of their principles, misguided though they are.

[andyb]

It's not rational and it doesn't make sense and it's based upon nothing when you get down to it but it's a matter of principle and conscience to them, unfortunatey.

Sadly it is based on politics. And it is really the politics of being against what the other party is for. It used to be crazy liberals that were the main anti-vax people.

[Philsmania]

It's not rational and it doesn't make sense and it's based upon nothing when you get down to it but it's a matter of principle and conscience to them, unfortunatey.

Sadly it is based on politics. And it is really the politics of being against what the other party is for. It used to be crazy liberals that were the main anti-vax people.

If so, it's a Frankenstein's monster that Trump unintentionally created. He supports getting vaccinated and probably sees "warp speed" produced covid vaccines as part of his meager legacy. He told people at a rally to get vaccinated and got booed.

[andyb]

It wasn't just Trump though he certainly accelerated it. This really started in the Tea Party and various libertarian components of the Republican party started winning primaries. Opposing Obama for political rather than policy reasons was one seed. Then there were anti-science pieces and the various culture wars that made education a party predictor (more = Dems, less = Reps) and that shattered all the economic reasons that each party had historically been based on.

The Republicans are an odd group now and it is a legitimate question whether this is sustainable. They can cobble on an anti-tax component to keep much of their funding in place, but they risk losing moderate suburban voters on everything else. They are a working class party without working class policies other than culture wars. Something has to give eventually.