2019-2020 MLB Non-Phillies News/Notes Discussion

[phillychuck]

Forfeit 2 first-round draft picks (2020, 2021), lose about 1/2 of international money for 2 years, and a large fine. And that might be light...

[Philsmania]

There's a lot of chatter about the Astros today. In addition to the sanctions that phillychuck suggests, some suggest that Hinch and/or Luhnow should end up on the permanently ineligible list and that the Astros' 2017 title should either get an asterisk or be officially vacated (no official WSC in 2017 like now no Tour de France champion for the years Lance Armstrong won it, have the Astros surrender the trophy and take down the banner at Minute Maid Park). I don't know if I would go to the latter extreme.

[flyers19rw]

To me this is an egregious scandal that has affected the outcomes of games, series, and careers of players. The integrity of the game was/is challenged by what Houston did. A quick review of their home away splits indicates that there was more than the average home field advantage in play here.
In the area of punishment, awarding the Dodgers a win of the series might be excessive but, as Philsmania suggests, vacating the win might be appropriate. Lifetime bans for those individuals involved might be harsh but maybe not. Stripping the Astros of all international activity for two years as well as their top ten picks in the next two drafts with steep limits on their draft pool money would not be too harsh for me.
As an aside, If this came out earlier, would the Phillies have hired Chris Young? The ripple affect of what went down in Houston for the past three or so years spreads wide.

[andyb]

PCs solution seems about right to me with the addition of at least year long suspensions to the decision-makers involved. I would not go as far as lifetime bans, but a 1 or 2 year suspension is still pretty harsh.

[allentown]

The ignorers of baseball's rules and the out-and-out cheaters have fared very well in recent years, those like the Phillies who insisted in following the 'spirit' of the rules, while ignoring the very obvious loopholes in the rules, while also foolishly acting 'for the good of baseball' as in wasting a primo first rounder on J.D.Drew have fared less well and earned no benefit from MLB's powers that be.

[Philsmania]

PCs solution seems about right to me with the addition of at least year long suspensions to the decision-makers involved. I would not go as far as lifetime bans, but a 1 or 2 year suspension is still pretty harsh.

Correa and Coppollela got lifetime bans. I'm surprised that Coppollela didn't face Federal charges for wire fraud.

[BostonRoss]

It's hard to imagine other teams didn't do things like this, though maybe not to the extent the Astros did. Remember the Red Sox Apple Watch scandal? If they come down very harshly on the Astros, there will be pressure to do so for other teams who have cheated recently. I think PC's proposed punishment would fly, but I am not sure MLB would want to open up the can of worms of even harsher measures that might have to be applied to several other teams//individuals.

[julio]

t's hard to imagine other teams didn't do things like this, though maybe not to the extent the Astros did.

This is the crux of the matter, I suspect. If MLB comes down hard on the Astros... will Astros personnel turn "state's evidence" on other clubs' behaviors? How much is known about what other clubs may have been doing? This could become a much broader scandal.

[Philsmania]

Pat Williams, the GM of the 1982-83 NBA Champion Sixers, is spearheading a group trying to bring an MLB franchise to Orlando.

[zambonir]

Yeah, I don't think there are many teams who are actually shocked by this. You've also got Astros guys running two other teams. And considering Luhnow came from the Cardinals (thus leading to the Correa hack) you have to question the whole culture there too (Correa still broke the law, but his feeling that Luhnow may have left St. Louis with proprietary info he wasn't supposed to seems a bit more likely now doesn't it?)

[Lawman]

Voidance of their WS title; one year suspension of Hinch and Luhnow; loss of 1st round draft picks for 2020 and 2021.

[Patchmk88]

Grandal, White Sox reach four-year, $73M deal

Looks like we are going to have to pay up big time to keep Realmuto. Grandal sets the market.

[California_Dreamin]

White Sox just signed Grandal to a 4 year deal. Couple of things interesting and Phillie related to this. One, I think this makes it more likely that the Brewers re-sign Moustakas, I always felt they could get one but not both back.

And two, they dropped OFer Daniel Palka from the 40 man roster to add Grandal. Palka was a guy many of us wanted the Phils to draft coming out of college and IIRC, the Phils did draft him out of HS and he was sort of the "one that got away" after that draft.

[BostonRoss]

Regarding the Astros, while I think suspensions, fines, and loss of draft picks are all worthy punishments, I don't think vacating the 2017 championship is a good idea. First, it would put pressure on to do similar things in other cases, and it's likely there are other cheating instances. MLB doesn't want several seasons without champions. Second, it's a bad message to the fans. Telling the Astros fans that championship they enjoyed didn't really count would make fans wonder why they bother being invested in watching games that ultimately may be meaningless. If 2017 didn't count, why bother paying attention to 2020 if I can't be sure it won't also be erased.

MLB hasn't erased the records of those who used PEDs, or taken away the championships of teams those guys played for. Starting down that road would open up a can of worms that could lead to serious damage to the game.

[BostonRoss]

Wow, Grandal is not worth nearly as much as Realmuto, who is 2 1/2 years younger. Realmuto is a Gold Glover, and Grandal was being used irregularly by the Dodgers during the postseason due to defensive inconsistency.

[andyb]

Realmuto is definitely better. Their offense is pretty close, so maybe the White Sox are thinking DH also.

I think we were are all thinking the floor for a Realmuto deal was 5/100. It might be a bit higher than that now. It also shows how ridiculous the arbitration system is. How can Realmuto have a projection in the $10-$11 million range? It should not matter that he was underpaid the last couple of years. That system should give him close to $20 million if it were working as it was envisioned. Yet another way baseball is broken.

[LoneStarPhan]

I agree that there should be no messing with the results of past games! However, fines and loss of draft picks and signing allocations are reasonable punishments.

[zambonir]

My guess is MLB will ultimately fail to make a true example of the Astros. Some draft picks and fines, sure. Maybe a token suspension, maybe the Astros have to fire someone (not for nothing, and Mike Fiers aside, it's also hard not to think the fact that they fired someone is the reason this has leaked). As Rosenthal suggests, the cheating is likely widespread, and the rule wasn't even as strict (or strictly worded) prior to 2019. The blowback from MLB sort of sweeping this under the rug would be less severe than if they have to punish five clubs or strip a World Series title. For instance if Hinch did this in 2017 what did his bench coach do with the Red Sox in 2018? Or Luhnow's former assistant who is the Brewers GM? Will they be witnesses or suspects?

When you combine an athletic culture that has always had "do anything to win" built into it with the Wall Street/Silicon Valley culture of "do anything to make money," hoo boy.

Rosenthal: MLB's sign-stealing investigation should not stop...

[andyb]

On Grandal it is interesting to note that on Fangraphs he is more valuable than on Baseball Reference. fWAR values framing much more so on Fangraphs he is worth 5.2 WAR last year and has averaged over 5 WAR for the 5-year 2015-2019 period with no season below 4 WAR. That is consistent and productive. Even if he is only worth 2.5 WAR like on BR he is still worth the $18 million a year.

[BostonRoss]

That is a useful data point. I think that evaluating defense, especially for catchers, is still an inexact science, and using multiple sources can provide a better picture.

It is interesting that the Dodgers chose to use Barnes more in the postseason when Grandal, clearly the superior offensive player, was there. Not to mention they let Grandal go, though money was part of the decision. The White Sox aren't exactly spendthrifts; so they must like him.